Quote from Hangar45 Admin on November 28, 2017, 2:30 am

(Original thread started on 02-14-09 by Mark L.)

Just curious from the guys that have the 'CNC' units. Are these commercial units like in machine shops, or Desktop CNC's or both. I didn't realize until doing a little Googling, that there are Desktop versions for the Home market and was just wondering what you guys were using.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 02-18-09)

Myself and Scott got our CNC machines from Ricardo Mendonca in Ashville, North Carolina. This CNC is made of white .75" and .5" Polly Board and is very rugged. It has a cutting work area of 12 inches by 24 inches. This is big enough to handle every panel in our L45 including the 10" X 16" circuit breaker panels. Back in October 2008, I went there and met him in person when I picked mine up. Ricardo is a really nice guy who will help you with the set up even after purchase. There is a link to his email on the "Links" page.

 

His CNC machine will cost about $1,500, but this does not include computers, software, routers and bits. The total cost of your setup would run $2,500 plus, depending on the software you obtain.

 

You will need a mechanical (vector) for cutting and a bitmap or engraving (raster) draw program(s). Coral Draw, Auto Sketch (by AutoDesk) and Adobe Illustrator are good examples of these. Then you will need a CAM program to convert the drawings into tool paths and "G" code. Examples of these would be ArtCAM, LazyCAM and SheetCAM. From there, the "G" code will need to be run on a controller program like Mach 3. Mach 3 controls the CNC and tells the three X, Y, and Z stepper motors where and when to go, and how fast. That is CNC in a nut shell and I am no expert on the subject. Needless to say, just learning to understand CNC work is a challenge. I have everything just about in place to start really working on my CNC machine just as soon as I get my computer updated.

 

I have finally got a computer together with the software needed to run my CNC work station satisfactorily. Thank you Vince for giving me the inspiration to press forward with this "micro mega hobby within a hobby". Now to really start learning how to drive this thing:

 

By the way, my father Ron Rollo Sr. is loving this because it is set up in his workshop!

 

UPDATE:

I got my CNC from Ricardo Mendonca in Ashville, North Carolina. His CNC machines are no longer available. I now recommend Probotix and you can check out there products here: http://www.probotix.com/

 

I currently use their stepper drivers and cards but have not had to update the actual CNC machine and stepper motors. When that time comes, I will be looking to Probotix!

 

(Posted by Scott Wegner on 02-19-09)

Nice setup Ron!  The CNC that I have is a Masters CNC and the same model as Ron's. I just received my bits yesterday and so am now ready to start getting down to business. I hope to have a panel cut by the end of this weekend.

 

(Posted by Mark L. on 02-22-09)

Okay, I know I said maybe next year, but tonight I picked up a CNC!!! The same as Ron and Scott's.  I tried for over the past couple of weeks to make some parts for the throttle quadrant by hand but the quality I have to admit is poor compared to what I know this machine can do once I figure it out.

 

I do have the neighbor across the street that runs CNC's for a living, so I'm sure I can get some expert help from him. So I'm looking forward to getting this, I suppose sometime in the next 2 weeks and getting to play with it. On another note, I finished up my center console and TQ cabinets today. So I definitely need this machine to finish my Throttle Quadrant.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 02-23-09)

Congratulations. You stepped in it now! I wish I had a CNC neighbor!  When it comes, read the book "Easy CNC" before you do anything. It will give you the basics of how to do CNC.

 

(If you have WindowsXP) I am using Auto Sketch 2004 for my drawing program. (You can find it for $80 on Amazon.com "used"). You can use LazyCAM that comes with Mach3 and the Mach 3 for the controlling software. Ricardo is going to give you a ton of software, but most of it is out dated. Coral Draw is another program that you will probably need to create the art work for the panels. Adobe Illustrator is what Vince is using.

 

I will be using:

Auto Sketch 2004 (mechanical drawing)

Coral Draw (Bitmap drawing)

ArtCAM (convert drawings to tool paths and create "G" code)

Mach 3 (CNC controller program)

 

The bottom line is you, like us, will be doing a lot of trial and error.

 

(Posted by Alaxus on 02-24-09)

I have got one of the Midi Routers:

http://widgitmaster.com/

 

The wide one would be very nice. Very well made.

 

This is a general post to those thinking to get a CNC:

Make sure you really test out your G code generating apps, ie Artcam, vectric V-carve, aspire etc.  As they are normally the most expensive software to get, you need to make sure that they are the right ones for you.  Some of the people at my CNC club found Artcam quite clunky, and have moved to vectric, which they found easier to use.

 

BTW all the panels I did were in Corel Draw and exported to DXF. You may find that you don't need a CAD app as Corel will do most of it.

 

For the money Mach3 is awesome!

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 02-24-09)

My first go at converting "G" code was with Lazy CAM which comes free with Mach 3. I thought that it was pretty rough and hard to work with. I found Art CAM okay to create the tool paths and make 3D models of the parts, but so far, I have not had time to convert my work to "G" code.

 

One thing that I have learned when it comes to this stuff (CNC), is there is no absolute best and cost friendly way to make it all work. If there was such a thing, we would all be using the same programs!  At this point, I have a very open mind and I am trying to take it all in and find the best solution and method for myself.

 

(Posted by Scott Wegner on 02-24-09)

I have been working with CorelDraw Graphics Suite X4 and agree that it is pretty good and so far finding it fairly easy to learn. I picked up on eBay for $89.00 so pretty good price for what you can do with it.

 

I know Illustrator is good too but I don't think it can directly export to .dxf like Corel can. With Corel you can export to .dxf then import the .dxf into whatever CAM package you have to do the tool paths and create G code.

 

Then Mach3 handles the rest.

 

I think the trickiest two parts are drawing the panels (which we already have lots of drawings so not too bad to put in Corel or Illustrator and trace them), then doing the tool paths with a decent CAM package and understanding the steps. My suggestion to you is to read Vince's tutorial and the EasyCNC book. It will take some time....I haven't cut any plastic yet and I have had everything for close to a month now.

 

I just tonight finally cut and leveled a flat sacrificial board for my CNC table leveled using the CNC and code I made in Corel and cam.

 

Popped into Mach3, ran it without the spindle running to check, then fired it up and cut away. It is a lot of fun even doing this much!

 

While awaiting your machine just start working on a panel or two in Illustrator and find a illustrator to .dxf converter. Then find a cam package and try to learn about importing and creating tool paths.

 

(Posted by Mrk L. on 02-25-09)

Actually Illustrator can export to DXF, the only question would be something that Corel does in support of a DXF file that Illustrator doesn't, otherwise, I'm thinking this may be sufficient for now. I'll have to do some tests. Trying to really save money now after buying a CNC that I wasn't going to do until next year!

 

I had some free time today and did a lot of checking forums on Vertec Cam and was quite impressed with what I found and read on VCarve Pro, however, it's around $500-600. The Aspire product by them is way out there in price. At the same time, Dolphin Cad/Cam has offered me their PartMaster Pro for $250.00 under their 'Hobby' program. Not a bad deal, but I really need to get my unit and compare the two first hand.

 

Current status for software is:

CAD: Adobe Illustrator and progeCad 2008 Smart (free for personal use, seems to work well so far)

CAM: Either Dolphin or VCarve Pro

Controller SW: Mach3

 

(Posted by Alaxus on 02-26-09)

I am importing .eps files ATM, from Corel draw to Vcarve, seems to work better than the .dxf especially with fonts.

 

Depending on your CAM package, your mileage may vary.

 

Another thing, most cam packages are classed as 2.5D. If you want to do 3D you may have to buy an addition or a Upgrade.

 

(Posted by Vince on 02-26-09)

I'm using Illustrator with .dxf exporting features and Artcam atm and I like the coupling. Matter with Illustrator is getting the paths really close so that Artcam feel them as shapes as it doesn't like open paths. Corel helps a bit more in this way, and Macromedia FreeHand even more, but I'm used to Illustrator and feel confident with it.

 

On another side we don't need any real 3D feature in the CAM as I don't think any of us have a 4 or 5 Axis CNC machine. All the parts we have to make can be done with a 2.5D software and some front/back piece swapping technique.

 

If you want to make real 3D you'll then need also a 3D software program. I tested sometimes in the past Rhinoceros 3D and it's RhinoCam plugin with good results. But it's a more complex world and I think that you'd only need if you want to move to different objects creations then the aircraft panels.

 

(Posted by Mark L. on 02-28-09)

Because of cost I opted for the offer from Dolphin CAD/CAM (PartMaster Pro) for $250.00 (normally $995) So this gives me a valid up to date CAD software with built-in CAM and Mach 3. In fact, I'm redoing a box tonight to install it on. For now I think this should be sufficient and may be all I need. If down the road there is a need to switch to say VCarve Pro, I can do it then (I really did like what I saw in VC Pro, thanks for pointing it out Alaxus).

 

I'm gaining ground fast with drawing and CAM work! Even though I don't have the CNC yet, I'm starting to get the hang of my CAM software and want to start on panels. I'm concentrating on finishing up my quadrant levers first. Hopefully by the time the machine gets here I'll be ready to cut those.

 

Here is some of the progress I've made with the new software. The process was from Illustrator to CAD to CAM with a Cut simulation. The part should be ready to cut. This part is the left and right side of the throttle quadrant cage, I finished the front piece also tonight, but no pic. Now I have to get back to the levers and finish them up. Scott, I almost forgot, or anyone for that matter. I could really use the size and possibly number of teeth on the gears from the lever to the potentiometer or from anyone that has that info:

 

Why is it so cool, the first real part you cut? Ron gave me a photo with the spoiler and flap lever cams with a ruler for reference. Converted and scaled it out and played with it in my CadCam software and cut my first plexiglass piece! Granted it's clear plexiglass, next week, I'll cut these out of aluminum (waiting for the correct bits). But for now it was great to watch chips fly and end up with a perfect mock up part! I will admit, since I was using regular plexiglass, the first attempt did some melting, but after selecting the correct bit and feed rate, wala! I'm not excited about this at all! Throttle levers are next!

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 03-21-09)

Hey Mark, it is too cool seeing these parts made out of Plexiglas. This is what it is all about, sharing knowledge and information to help each other get something done!

 

Today I was officially born into the World of CNC cutting. I cut the Lower Center Backer Panel out and although I had a few lessons to overcome, this part came out as close to perfect as I could hope for!

 

The part is drawn out in Auto CAD at 5.25" X 9.4535" and after all the chips settled, the part measured in at 5.25" X 9.4375", basically proving that my machine is very close to being calibrated.

 

By the way Eric, the AML21 fit nice and snug in the .75" square holes perfectly. I am also happy that we went with the last change in the landing gear three pack.

 

Vince, I am sorry to bore you with elementary pictures but I just had to share with you and the rest of the guys who either have a CNC or are thinking about getting one. After all, you are the reason I stepped off the deep end and purchased my own CNC back in October 2008. I think Scott and Mark can say the same thing. Thanks Vince for being our inspiration!

 

 

UPDATE:

I have only been cutting with my CNC for about two months, but yet I feel like I have learned so much in such a short period of time.

 

I can't say if this is a good machine or not but I will tell you a few things that I would look for in a CNC if I was doing it all over again. First off is the size of the cutting bed. The largest piece in the L45 is the CB panels. They are 10" X 16". The longest piece, (If you choose to do what a few of us are doing is the Left and Right lower Backer Panels.) They are 22" long. As it turns out, a CNC machine with a bed of 12" X 24" works out perfectly for us. However, there are ways around cutting parts that are larger than the cutting bed.

 

If you can afford it, get one made out of aluminum. The stronger the better. You don't want any movement what so ever in your structure. I have to say though, for the money, I really like what I have even though it is made of .75" HDPE.

 

Spend a few extra bucks on a variable speed router. I run mine at 20,000 RPM. The very first time I ran mine, I had it set at 15,000 RPM. Meanwhile, my father cranked up the table saw in the next room and then my router slowed down to 0 RPM, but the CNC was still moving! Long story short, it's nice to be able to change the spindle speed of the router.

 

The other thing that I noticed about this CNC that you are inquiring about is that it is belt driven. I'm not sure if that is a PRO or a CON. I think if I had a choice I would go with screws.

 

I also wanted to share that I did as Vince suggested and made a base board. I lowered a .25" bit about -.05" into the board and "Mowed it" back and forth like I was cutting the lawn. Then I put some one inch grid lines on it to make lining up parts a little easier. I choose to make my engraving board 10" X 16" because that is the biggest part that I will be engraving. After I use the heck out of it, I will make another one. It only takes about 20 minutes to do this, but of course it depends on how big of a base you are cutting.

 

I hope this information helps with your search of a CNC machine Dave.

 

(Posted by Dave Ault on 05-18-09)

Thanks for all the advice Guys. Sounds like I would need to avoid belt drive machines.

 

The Marchant Dice one ( see Vince's link ) looks smart but looks like the biggest one would not handle the 10" x 16" piece that Ron mentioned. I'll have to send them an email to see it it comes with a router , interface and software.

 

I have been looking around the net again and found Elektor.com has Kit form CNCs that looks promising:

https://www.elektor.com/

 

(Posted by Vince on 05-18-09)

I wouldn't buy a CNC just because it is large enough to mill what I need, but first I would always double check that is rock solid, fast and has good support from vendor. Spending 1500 Euros for a toy is like putting your money out the window....

 

The one in kit form from Elector has some evident downsides:

1) The screws are very small (12mm or less). Those will bend as soon a you cut deeper then 1mm at time.

 

2) The movement is based on very small bearings that will lead to lot of vibrations while using it.

 

3) The collet adapter for the spindle is 20mm (Dremel like tools). A Dremel won't make ever a good job for our purposes. You need a professional tool, like Kress or Shore (if you want to fly low under 200 Euros).

 

4) The nut on the screws is full generic plastic, and will wear out easily. Plastics are used to make nuts but special types like Delrin. Bronze is mostly used because screws are made out of different metals and they won't grip when rolling.

 

5) You'll have to build the machine yourself, with all the downsides of not being sure of tollerances while assembling it.

 

6) Interfacing is serial and this means SLOW. At least parallel type drivers should be used. The best is an USB interfacing like Geecko Drives, but expensive.

 

I'm sure that with a 1800 euros/1600 Pounds budget you can get an excellent complete machine. It's just a matter of finding the right one. You might look among the German CNC stores, because many of them have Chinese imported CNC that while being cheap make an excellent job.

 

I also point you to the seller in Italy where I bought mine: www.creostamp.it. With 1650 Euros you can get a full working machine completely made out of solid aluminum.

 

(Posted by Mark L. on 06-12-09)

Vince had pointed out the use of the Dremel on the Elektor, I also wanted to backup Vince to stay away from Dremel based CNC's. Mine came with a RotoZip R1, not big enough and loose tolerances and no variable speed. So I purchased a RotoZip R20, variable speed, tighter tolerances and mainly because I didn't need a new router mount. But I still have issues with runout and no high end collets available to correct it, so I may end up yet purchasing a Bosch or Cable Porter router so I can get a better collet to eliminate runout. The basic collet I've found can create a .001-.005 or worse runout creating a .002 - .030 error when cutting, which has been a major issue for me making my throttle quadrant as I need .002 or less.

 

More often than not, it boils down to you get what you pay for and always costs more to correct the issues.

 

To those that eventually purchase a desktop machine. Stay away from the Rotozips period for your router/spindle. Not that they're bad units, it's just the degree of precision is not there and most importantly, there is currently no high end collet available for them.

 

Therefore, today I ordered a Bosch Colt PR20EVSK (router only, variable speed) because I can get a high end collet which I've also ordered from Precise Bits. I got a factory reconditioned unit with full 1 year warranty thru CPO.Bosch for $79. This should put a final end to tolerance issues I've been having. If I'm cutting a 3" part, it's not a big deal, but when I'm trying to machine out something less than a .250", then that .005 or greater runout causes some major headaches. I was spending almost as much time making sure the bit was in straight as I was cutting the part, so it's time for a stab at a new solution.

 

At least according to Precise Bits with their collet, I can get as close to 0 as technically possible. I also don't need this issue when I start the engraving and creating PCB boards. Wish me luck! I told Scott, I'll get this machine to work right yet, or go broke trying!

 

(Posted by Mark L. on 07-06-09)

Update on my Router problems, tolerances actually.  I got tired of waiting and no response from Ricardo to send me a mount for the Bosch Colt (I sent him a check on the 19th of June), so I made my own. Thanks for the pics of the mount Scott!

 

Hooked it all up today and ran my little test that failed using 2 different Rotozip routers and I finally got exactly what I hoped for, 0.000" out of spec! I'm using a Bosch Colt with the High End collet from PreciseBits.com (Think & Tinker). Until the bearings give out, I've got near 0 runout. I cut a 1" circle with a .175 island in the center and that's exactly what I got compared to .155 - .127 before.

 

So if you end up with parts out of spec, check the runout on your router! I could have saved some bucks getting the good stuff to start with.

 

I ordered the kit that comes with:

Bosch Colt Collet Kit (contains 1/8 in. & 1/4 in. Colt collets, collet nut, spanner wrench and 118 ml of ColletCare) BOPG-COLT-84KIT $69.95

 

(Posted by Kris Stow on 12-17-10)

So it has been awhile since the last post on this thread and I was wondering what programs are you guys currently using now to date for software and are you still happy with your machine..

 

I started a new thread regarding the machine I was looking into buying but wanted to get the software squared away.. thanks guys and happy chip throwing!

 

Forgot to ask about the material your using also, anyone got a good supplier for here in the states?

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 12-18-10)

Hey Kris, You'll get many different answers but I will tell you what I am using.

 

I use Auto Sketch 2004 for my drawings. ($75.00) I had to use this older program because all my computers are running WindowsXP. Although it is older, it has done everything I have asked of it so far, however, where it sucks is when I try to open a DXF file created by a different program from one of the other guys. I create these drawings in a .dxf file.

 

I don't have it yet but Coral Draw is what you will need for the artwork on the face of your front panels.

 

I use ArtCam to convert the .dxf drawings into tool paths. Then the tool paths are converted into G codes. It is the G code that your machine will need in order to cut your parts.

 

Last but not least, I use Mach3 to run the G code. The Mach3 program is what actually runs your CNC machine. With Mach3, you can run your CNC manually, (which I have done on certain jobs) or more commonly, you will load your created G code and let the computer run the CNC.

 

As far as plastic suppliers go, here in the USA, www.estreetplastics.com has a nice selection. But their shipping is a little higher compared to other suppliers.

 

Like I said, you'll get many different answers. One of the hardest things I found about CNC is finding the right combination of computer hardware, program software and the CNC machine. You need it all to mesh together without spending more money than needed!

 

(Posted by Mark L. on 12-19-10)

As far as software goes, I use one program for all of it and love it. VCarve Pro by Vectric. A little on the pricey side, but it does it all except for the 3D (Can purchase separately or jump to Aspire for the 3D stuff but costs more). I do the CAD, create the tool paths (CAM) and generate the G code to port over to the Mach3 software and start cutting. Very happy with this configuration. They just released version 6, so I have to come up with the $150 for the upgrade, but it will be worth it. A lot of it is what you can afford and grab demo's wherever you can to check out the software, that helps with the decision process as well.

 

Additionally, I am on my 3rd router which should have been my first. Bosch Colt There are bigger and possibly better routers, but for the size CNC I have, this is the best. Don't waste your time and money on RotoZips or Dremels.

 

DO REPLACE the factory supplied chuck with a High End, high speed balanced collet from PreciseBits.com Most here remember I had months of agony trying to figure out why I couldn't cut anything to spec. It was because of runout at the spindle because of cheap default collets. I have virtually zero runout now and cut everything to what I told the machine to do.

 

Bits - Get them from PreciseBits.com They have all the help you could need online on picking out which bits for which process and they've been great to deal with.

 

Software - depends on how much you have to spend as to what you can get. I started out with Dolphin CadCam Pro which as a newbie, had quite a steep learning curve, but I can now create and produce almost anything from it. They also have 'hobbyist' prices which was the big one for me at the time. There are some things it doesn't do well and one of them is engraving. While it is capable of it, it's mainly from embedded fonts (very few) and clumsy at the process of how to do it. Last week I purchased VCarve Pro after trying the demo and eyeballing it for the last 6 months. Not overly priced and compared to Dolphin what I like best is the 3d shaded preview of the part versus the wire frame in Dolphin. It shows you a lot quicker where problems may lie. The 'tabs' feature is great and easy to use as well to keep parts from getting wrecked when the final cut from material is done. Engraving is a joy and a breeze with this software. Simply select the text tool, select your font, create the text and then create the tool path with the engraving bit you want to use and your done. I also like the tool database in this application. Based on data about the tool, it figures out for itself, how many passes (how deep to cut) to remove the material or cut the part out. It's very intuitive software and I can see me in a year or two upgrading to their Aspire version to get the '3D' carving ability.

 

That's the quick and dirty on what I've experienced so far, but there's a lot more to it and what I've learned. My next machine will be bigger, better and faster as I currently have a entry level machine, but either Joe's 4x4 Hybrid or a K2 is probably in my future. Milling aluminum is borderline on my current machine and like the K2, this would be a piece of cake.