Forum Navigation
Please or Register to create posts and topics.

Throttle Quadrant Module by Project45

(Original thread started on 03-10-10 by Ron Rollo)

Last week I started working on my TQ module. I am not the first to take this on as we all know Mark and Scott did great jobs on their TQ's! I took long looks at their projects and it helped get me started, so thanks Mark and Scott!

 

One thing about building something like this is if you try to copy someone's work nut for nut and screw for screw, you will drive yourself crazy. So once I had the main idea in mind, I put these pictures aside and went to work. As it turns out, and especially if your using half inch Burch wood like I am, there is only one way this thing is going to go together. There is no room for guess work. The throttles HAVE to be in a certain area, the flap and spoiler HAS to be in a certain area!

Ron 822

 

My TQ module design will be able to be pulled from the TQ pedestal after removing only two screws.  You can see how tight this is going to be. The flaps lever is not installed yet and there is just enough room for it. So far, I think it is all going to fit including the parking brake!

Ron 823

 

For those of you who have the real throttle parts, I will be able to make these parts for you with the JIG that I am creating! More pictures to come as the progress is made.

 

I took my Flaps lever and the Spoiler Arm apart and took a few nice pictures of them. I Hope this is useful to you and the others who have to build their own:

Ron 824

 

Ron 825

 

Ron 826

 

Ron 827

 

Ron 828

 

In both cases, you will notice that there are two pieces working against each other with a spring inside and between them. The spring keeps the small round "Rider" for lack of a better term, pulled down in the "Gates" pictured above. You will probably need to start with some rectangular aluminum channel for the outside part.

 

UPDATE:

Here is a little update on the Project45 TQ module to date. Next will be the slider POTS and the little bucket that the FLAPS sit in:

Ron 829

 

Shane's parking break was fun to fit in here!

Ron 830

 

I did not have to modify my TQ pedestal much so far. Two attachment holes and a little shaving for the Parking Break:

Ron 831

 

Left side view. Notice everything is fixed to the TQ module:

Ron 832

 

Right side view. The fun part is going to be the FLAPS bucket. I have some great ideas for this. Study and enjoy!

 

UPDATE:

Our TQ parts source says it may be a year before another set is made available. But if you can't wait that long, Mark has said he would consider making a replica set for those who are interested. You can see mark's set above in this thread, it's hard to see that it's a replica of the real part, but it is!

 

I am going with my own spacing and design of the TQ. It is going to be very close to the real TQ cover plate but it will be off a little where the flaps are, the spoilers and the parking brake. If I was building this just for myself, I would find a way to replicate this part of the build perfectly. But I am working on at least four sets so I have to take the path that will not require milling down the inside walls of the TQ pedestal. Shane says he is going to try to stick to the real TQ plate pattern, so here in a few weeks, he will be getting some parts from me and then it would probably be a good idea that the two of you work together to find those solutions needed.

 

In the future, it would be nice to make a CAD drawing of the TQ and let Tom cut it out of aluminum for the new guys coming on line. This would solve the issue of not having enough room. for the flaps and spoilers.

 

If you are wondering, YES, these are real Lear45 parts! We have about seven sets floating around in our little community. As Eric pointed out, one set is currently available from Kris Stow who has decided to move on with other interest.

 

If you are serious about this project, you really need to think about snapping up this set! Our source says that it could be several months if not a year before the next complete set is made available!

 

UPDATE:

This week I finished the placement of the POT brackets that Tom sent me. Thanks Tom! To my surprise, the TQ module all went together very well and it still fits in the TQ pedestal. I am so used to doing things at least two times!

 

While I am in TQ mode, I pulled apart one of the throttle levers and wired up the "GO-AROUND" switch. If you guys do this, make sure to tape the wires down in the channels or the reverser mechanisms will pinch them:

Ron 833

 

Here you can see the wires coming out of the end. I used shrink wrap to help protect the wires from bending back and forth. In this picture, you can also see the switch that activates the reverser:

Ron 834

 

Close up of the Spoiler POT and bracket:

Ron 835

 

Here is the right throttle POT and the cut off switch. The cut off switch is not touched until it is physically pulled back into the cut off position:

Ron 836

 

IT STILL FITS! It is very tight and no room for paint I am afraid:

Ron 837

 

Here are five other sets and the original JIGS. These sets are already taken by members who have the real Lear45 TQ parts:

Ron 838

 

Which reminds me, if you like what you see and want to save yourself a ton of work, there is still one set of the real throttles for sale on the "classified" page! Enjoy the pictures!

 

UPDATE:

This is the $120 version of the TQ kit. You get all the custom made parts, all the hardware and all the pots and switches. (There is a lot of stuff bolted to the other sides of the main pieces too!)

Ron 839

 

I picked up Eric's throttles last week and completed his which is pictured below. If any of you guys would rather me assemble the TQ module, I can do it for you but please email or call me for pricing. It will be complete as seen below with the exception of the parking brake, which Shane Barnes is making for us guys. If you want Shane's PB, let me know so we can work it in.

 

I also completed the first TQ module kit and that will be shipped out to Tom Goldberg tomorrow. I took a few more close up pictures for you guys to help aid in the assembly process. There is still a little drilling and modifying that needs to be done and I will try to cover those areas here.

 

 

This is the back side of the TQ Module. Notice the wires coming out of the throttle levers:

Ron 840

 

You will need to open up the four holes in the bottom of the throttles for the rods that hold them in place. Also, there are several bolts that will need to be cut down a little in order for things to fit properly. It won't take long to figure out what needs to be trimmed down:

Ron

 

Another photo of the underside of the TQ module:

Ron 842

 

There are two brackets included in the kit so that the TQ module can be attached to the TQ pedestal. These brackets with the eight included screws have not been fitted onto the TQ module because there will certainly be slight variations between each one. Also notice that you will have to drill a hole in the left one so that the nut and bolt to the Spoiler arm can be attached:

Ron 843

 

I will tell you that after the holes are drilled into the pedestal, you will need to run the bolt from the back side and counter sink it by using a nut and tightening it down really tight. This will pull the head of the bolt into the wood. This has to be done because the AML-21 switch bodies are right there and there is no room even for the bolt heads!

Ron 844

 

Last but not least, there are two roller switches included. These are for the Thrust Reversers. Two holes need to be drilled into the metal part that slides in and out of the bottom rear of the throttle handles. I found that this metal is super hard and it took a lot to get a drill bit through it but I was finally successful!

Ron 845

 

Please take your time and study your TQ parts and the parts in the kit. If you can't figure something out, you didn't look and think long enough! With that said, for those guys who are going to tackle this yourself, I don't think you will have any issues. But if you do, please post the question and maybe even a photo of the problem so the other guys can learn from it.

 

NOTE:  This kit is only for the guys who have acquired the real Throttles, Spoiler arm and Flaps lever. Without this parts, this kit will not get you far at all. These sets run $500 plus shipping. But like I said, there is a wait time for the next set.

Posted by Eric Tomlin on 04-09-10)

Remember that Mark's replica isn't made to work with the mounting kit Ron is showing here. This kit is for real part mounting only.

 

Here's the unit sitting on my PC rack/stand with wires going everywhere:

Erict 23

 

Mods include adding a 5.5"x6" base to the bottom to mount the GF TQ module you see in the foreground. This will allow the unit to be truly plug-and-play with only 1 USB cable required to use the throttle functions (L/R Engine, Spoiler, Flaps, L/R Reverser, L/R Fuel Cutoff). The parking brake switch will tie into a spare slot on one of my FDS SYS cards.

 

Thanks again to Ron for making the mounting kit and for getting this to me in time for some additional JET45 testing! Thanks to Shane for the great Parking Brake design.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 05-17-10)

I emailed everyone who is currently in line to either get a throttle kit set or have their throttle module built up, so this new information should not effect anyone ATM, but I have to put it out there.

 

The news is that I have severely under cut what I thought I was able to build them for which was $60 for the kit and $50 to build the module up if the parts were supplied. 

The throttle kit is $120 shipping not included.

 

UPDATE:

Throttle Quadrant Module Update, I finally finished Shane Barnes and my set pictured below:

Ron 846

 

I sent out Shane's TQ module and got a really good start on the next four kits.

Ron 847

 

One thing that I have been trying to find the answer to is a small bushing that will take up the slack in the throttle levers and the linkage to the slider POTs. Well, Tom found the answer for us! It is Nyrod tubing used in RC models. Now there is no play in the throttle levers. Whatever input you give them, the POTs will pick it up! Here is a picture of what the little guys look like when they are cut down to size:

Ron 848

 

And here is another nice picture of my TQ module in my sim. I still need to wire it up and then work on the cosmetic issues which I will also post here in this thread:

Ron 849

 

I will have these next four kits that I am working on out by next Wednesday. While the kits are en route, I will type up a few hints and clues that will make the build easy and pleasurable for you guys and future builders.

 

For the guys who have or are getting a TQ module kit. I wanted to give you a few hints and clues to help your build go a little easier. Unfortunately, I cannot do a step by step tutorial of this build because it would be as long as the SAM that I put together.

 

Hint: Get to know your throttles inside and out. Don't be afraid to take them apart and discover what makes them work. This is not something that your going to get done in one afternoon I am afraid!

 

Clue: Art, our throttle set supplier sends them with a bolt going through the main pivot point of the throttles to hold it all together.. This needs to be removed and discarded.

 

Clue: You will also notice that the reversers do not deploy fully. There is a nut and bolt on each throttle that is preventing them from deploying. They need to be removed and discarded. In both cases, Art did this to help protect the parts while in route to you.

 

Hint: Start with wiring up the GO AROUND and MUTE buttons. When you get the throttle arms apart, you will notice that there is a channel for the wires. Your will need to tape the wires down with that aluminum tape used for A/C ducting.

 

CLUE: Attach the reverser switches to the reverser arms. It will help if you have a drill press to drill through the metal. It is very strong stuff!

 

HINT: In every case that I am aware of, the FLAP knob has been attached upside down. Take a look at the reference photos in this thread and make sure that your flaps knob is on the lever correctly.

 

HINT: At this point your ready to start assembly of the TQ module. In the cases of the pivot points of the Flaps and the Spoiler arms, all of the hardware is there and in the correct order. However, depending on what is included with your set from Art, you might find that you will need to add or take away a washer here or there.

 

CLUE: The four rods are designed to hold everything together. If your throttles feel too loose, tighten the rods a little until the throttles feel like they are hooked to something. Also, you will need to cut the rods and a few of the bolts down in order for everything to fit and operate properly.

 

HINT: If your lucky, your TQ module will fit perfectly into your TQ pedestal, but more than likely, it won't. That is why I did not attach the mounting brackets to the TQ module. You may find that you need to shave, sand or maybe even add material to your module to get the perfect fit. Once you have achieved that fit, then you can find the mounting holes for the mounting brackets.

 

If you have questions, please post them here so that the other builders can benefit from them. Happy building!

 

(Posted by Derek H. on 07-08-10)

Ron, I got your TQ kit in the mail, and I'm (finally) working on assembling it now. This thing is an engineering beauty!

 

I do have a quick question regarding the spoiler and flap levers, though. I can't quite make out how you have attached the white plastic piece on the end of the connecting rod (from the slider pot to the lever). Did you drill and screw it? It looks like you have rubber bands wrapped around the spoiler arm in one of the pictures - is that what you used?

Derek 1

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 07-08-10)

Hey Derek, I can answer that one for you. Ron uses Permatex brand black silicone adhesive. The item number is 81158 (16B). If you look back at one of the photos, you will see one showing this part and you will see the circles are filled in with black adhesive. Once you apply the adhesive let it set up for 24 hours and that should give you a strong bond.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 10-09-10)

Here is an update on what's new with the TQ module. Shane and I (with Eric's input) have decided that we will be using Leo Bodnar's BU0836X Interface cards specifically for the Potentiometers inputs, which there are eleven of them in all in the aircraft. (Four of them are on the TQ module.) These boards also have 32 button inputs and a hat switch input which makes it perfect for the TQ module. The thing I like most about this card is the quick connect or disconnect of the wires and that every input including the grounds have their very own terminal! For more information on this board and others by Leo go to http://www.leobodnar.com

 

We also decided to mount the board to the TQ module so that all wiring related will be routed directly to the interface board making it so easy even a cave man can remove it from the TQ pedestal. Only one USB plug needs to be removed and your done.

 

So I designed a plate that will hold the interface card to the bottom of the module. By the way, just after I got two of these plates finished, my CNC machine decided to take a dirt nap!

Ron 850

 

The cool thing about mounting it to the bottom of the module is that it will be very easy to work on and to get to all the solder terminals on the POTs and switches while the module is sitting upside down. Just make sure that the throttle handles are sitting on a towel or bubble wrap like I have it here:

Ron 851

 

Routing of the wires around the TQ module will be easy because of the slots that I created in the plate. Access to the interface card while the TQ module is in the TQ pedestal is also made easy by the side access doors!

Ron 852

 

UPDATE:

Today I started the Flaps Bucket. I was going to follow Mark's method because his turned out so good, but I soon realized that I did not have enough room from left to right to go that route. So I had to revert back to my original idea. Basically, I will be using two pieces of 3/4" MDF and an aluminum sidewall to get the job done.

 

First off, I had to get the basic design and shape down. I went back and forth between the photos that I have to insure that I was as close to the real thing as possible. In this picture, take note that the Flaps handle will come off with the removal of a screw. If you look closely at reference photos, you will notice that there is a hole in the right side wall that enables you to remove the handle:

Ron 853

 

Next was the creation of the jig. I used 1/2" MDF that is 1/2 inch wide if you follow it all around it's strange curves. Then I made two pieces 3/4" thick and the two center parts are 3/16" thick. I used a router table to do this, not my CNC. It was a little tricky working with smaller parts. As a matter of fact, I was going to use high end cabinet wood but the grains in the wood caused the router bit to catch the wood and snap it off!

Ron 854

 

Here all the parts are glued together. I ran this part back through the table router to ensure that is was even and square:

Ron 855

 

Test fitting was a little tricky for me because the TQ pedestal was miles away. But first, I found that I had to shave less than a 1/16" off of the left side so that the flaps arm was not too tight:

Ron 856

 

I made the right side of the flaps bucket with aluminum sheeting with the hopes that it won't be too thin. If it is too tight, I can shave some material off of the right MDF piece. Notice the hole for the screw access?

Ron 857

 

Here all the parts are temporally being held together with tape. After test fitting, sanding and primer, I will glue all these parts together making it a permanent part to the right pancake!

Ron 858

 

The fit is perfect! Usually I have to do something two or three times to get a perfect fit, so there has to be something wrong! Notice the four dummy screws? They do nothing but simulate the attachment points for the real part:

Ron 859

 

Next week when I get the first one finished and looking pretty, I will let everyone know what I can make the DIY kits for. (It has to be a DIY kit because of the fitting and shaving process)

 

UPDATE:

I call these the throttle lever dust covers. I used my CNC (which just came back up on line today) to make two slider rails. I also used 3/4" nylon spacers to set the rails off of the main pancake wooden parts:

Ron 860

 

I used .0625" thick gray plastic for the covers. I am still looking for a darker gray plastic in the same thickness but so far I have not been able to find it. As a matter of fact, this plastic is actually pieces of a Hillman parts box that you would find at an Ace hardware store. The guys that I deal with there all the time were nice enough to give me an empty box to cut up:

Ron 861

 

The dust covers will slide past the TQ cross member. I have already had the TQ module in the TQ pedestal and it works fine. But what I am going to have to do is make some longer plastic dust covers. The ones in the pictures a only 10 inches long. I have 16 inch plastic ordered. The longer plastic helps it slide against the cross members. The .0625" thick plastic is very flexible and bends up against the wooden cross over.

 

As a matter of fact, I was more concerned about the part at the rear of the module. As it turns out believe it our not, the problem with the current design is with the front end. The dust covers were too short and after the throttles were pushed forward, they would loose contact with the wooden crossover. Then when you pull them back towards idle, they would want to ride over the top of the wood.

 

To solve this, we need longer dust covers. 16 inches should do the trick! I would post pictures of the module in place but it is currently in a million pieces. I am working on painting it and wiring. If any of you guys who have a CNC and would like this DXF file (and "G" code) so that you can make your own, just email me.

 

UPDATE:

I completed the Flaps bucket. I could not ask for more from it. It is strong, looks the parts and fits perfectly!

Ron 862

 

Ron 863

 

The right side wall of the flaps bucket is 1/32" aluminum and as you can see, there is a hole in the side of it. This is so we can get the handle off and on. The real L45 also has this access hole.

 

I also took the TQ module apart and painted it in two tone. I know that a lot of these part will never be seen by most of my guest, but it is something that I had to do! I also have all of the wires soldered to their Pots and switches. I am ready to put this thing together, hopefully for the last time!

Ron 864

 

The screws in the edge of the "pancake" pieces are nothing but the very last details in the TQ module next to the spoiler lever. They don't do anything but simulate the real attachment screws for the real parts. You will notice the same thing in the flaps bucket. Just more dummy screws.

Ron 865

 

Now if you can imagine the light cover plate over the whole package, it is really going to look like the real thing. By the way, I painted the parts with our Model Master Gunship Gray and it is a spot dead on perfect match with the handles and knobs related to the throttles and flaps handle, etc.... Also, if you look closely, you will see the access hole in the flaps bucket in this photo above.

UPDATE:

Here are the updates on the TQ module!

Ron 866

 

The dust cover sliders are installed and working nearly perfectly. I have a few more adjustments to make but at this point, I am ready for a break from it:

Ron 867

 

I like setting it upside down to do some of the work on it. As a matter of fact, it is probably a good idea not to sit it on the interface card:

Ron 868

 

Shane, you can tell from this photo, but I wanted to tell you that I modified the parking brake so that when it is set, it can be turned to either the left or the right like the real L45. (We discovered this a few months ago while looking at reference photos.)

 

Mark, the plastic I am using for the sliders is 1/16th inch PVC. It is a little stronger than the other test plastic I was using. Although I could operate the sliders with the wooden cross over in place, it was very stiff and did not feel right. I might be able to get away with it for a little while but eventually I would need to revisit this. So I went ahead and carved as much of the cross over out as possible to make room for the sliders:

Ron 869

 

I used felt to protect the face of the sliders from being scratched by the wood with time:

Ron 870

 

Here you can see that the sliders looks as if they are right at home!

Ron 871

 

This is the other end. The key is to use 16 inch long strips for the dust covers so that they ride against the wood, and of course the felt covering:

Ron 872

 

I really can't believe that I have managed to cram so much stuff is such a small space. I hope this thread helps everyone out and gives you ideas related to your TQ module issues:

Ron 873

 

Here is the TQ light plate hold down bracket:

Ron 874

 

I went out and purchased a small brake big enough to handle this job. I used 1/32" thick aluminum which is thinner than the real bracket but strong enough for our simulators. I used auto door trim for the edge. At a later date, I might be able to find something that is a better fit but for now it will work.

 

I was very careful to make sure my measurements were right on. But one thing I forgot about was the max travel of the throttle levers up and to the APR indent and the retracted position of the Spoilers. I was lucky that it all fit perfectly as you can see in a photo below:

Ron 875

 

Ron 876

Now all I am missing is the light plate cover!

 

It will be a while before I update this thread with the creation of the light plate cover. However, if you are tired of waiting around for someone to develop a TQ Cover for your SIM, check out this fast and low budget solution!

Ron 877

 

I made this in about 4 hours with very little material.

Ron 878

 

And... the other side:

Ron 879

 

If you would like to build your own, just email me and I will send you the TQ cover file so that you can print it out and make one yourself. To start with, you will need to make a template to work out any bugs. The file that I will give you should work fine unless you have Mark's TQ set which differs slightly. In any case, the file will get you close.

 

Photo of my template:

Ron 880

 

The key to this is Woodland Scenics Dry Transfers. I am actually using the wrong font and did not care to try to put in the turn symbol for the parking brake. I just wanted something that looks good and is functional:

Ron 881

 

I used white poster board for my Temp TQ cover plate. It took two coats of paint to give me the desired finish I was looking for. Here I am just getting started with the dry transfers:

Ron 882

 

If you have never used dry transfers, it is just a matter of rubbing the sticker off through the paper. If your new to dry transfers, practice some first before you start on your good piece. Also, you have to be good at lining things up:

Ron 883

 

I used four painted thumb tacks to hold the paper TQ cover in place. I thought about using thin aluminum instead of paper for the cover but decided to just keep it super simple and fast as it is just temporary.

 

Now, (if I ever get to that point of flying this darn thing) my guest and I will have references to the positions of the levers, although not back lit yet.

 

On a side note, our source for the real TQ parts is no longer able to come through for us. So if you were thinking about either going with the real parts or Mark's incredible replica, it is a no brainier now. Mark is the only show in town. If or when our source comes through again, I will let you all know.

 

Thrust Reverser Lockout:

 

PROBLEM:  What we are trying to accomplish is to "lock out" the reverse thrust levers at all times unless certain conditions are met and the pilots are calling for them by pulling the reversers up into the first reverser detent.  In other words, they should only be available to the pilots during an aborted take off or immediately after a landing to help slow the aircraft down.

 

There are several things that have to happen in order to energize the solenoids which in turn release the reverser linkage:

 

1. Aircraft has to be on the ground.  WOWs.  I use this offset to start and stop the Davtron clocks.

2. Throttles have to be set to idle.  We might need another micro switch.

3. The engine we want to deploy has to be running.

4. At least one engine has to be running to supply hydraulic pressure of at least 1900 lbs.

5. The FIRE PUSH buttons on the engine start panel can not be pressed.

6. Circuit breakers can not be pulled.

 

As of now, we all have our throttles set up (regardless if you have the real parts or Mark's replica set), so that the reversers do not lock out at any point. However, the software locks them out while in flight. So the thing we are looking into is if we can also lock out the physical reverse levers as well until conditions are met and we call for them.

 

Here is a photo of where the solenoid would screw into the real part:

Ron 884

 

This is a 24 volt "pull" solenoid and probably what the real deal looks like:

24 volt solenoid

You can find them HERE

 

And this is a 12 volt "pull" solenoid and probably what I will be using:12 volt solenoid

You can find them HERE

The only difference between these two solenoids is one is 24 volts and the other is 12 volts.  The physical size of both of these solenoids is 38 x 19mm/ 1.5" x 0.75"(L*D).  If you are building your sim based on a 12 volt dual power supply electrical system, you will want to use the 12 volt solenoids.

I have discovered that there is a linkage arm or some type of leverage mechanism that is missing from the real TQ parts. The solenoids that I have shown above have a 10mm pull so there is no way it will reach the reverser links. Also, if you look at the first photo, there are mounting points for that missing linkage. I guess we can call it "The Missing Link!"

 

Another issue is I currently have the throttle potentiometer link arms connected to the solenoid linkage mounting points. See this photo:

Ron 886

 

So as I see it, there are two problems to overcome:

1. We need to design the missing link.

2. We need to find a way to tie the throttle links into the linkage point.

 

This little issue is not a deal breaker if we can't find a way to get it to work but it would be cool.  Your thoughts?

 

(Posted by Eric Tomlin on 03-27-12)

My thoughts?  While I appreciate the research that goes into understanding how this part interfaces with the rest of the throttle and what its purpose is, my thoughts are that it's honestly a waste of time to be concerned about trying to implement a solenoid for this. I've never had the reverser levers move on me/my setup while in flight and you're right also in that FS will not allow them to deploy in flight either. I have had *several* visitors to my sim and at no time have they ever tried to deploy reversers while in flight/off the ground. Naturally, I would never attempt to do it myself either. At this point, I have to ask what would be the reward for taking everything apart and spending more more on an item that should never be used to begin with, other than bragging rights on the fact that it *does* work as designed, but again, who would ever try to force it in flight?

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 03-27-12)

Probably as you say "bragging rights". To me it is another one of those areas that I will probably revisit at some point if a solution can be found. I think you have different motivators for builders, some like to have every part as functional as possible, like me, and some really like the procedural side. Some just want a sim to fly and don't worry about details. The good part about building a sim is you take it as far as you want to go with it. Myself, I like having the option to incorporate a feature if it is available if only to be able to say to a visitor, "see it won't engage in flight just like the real aircraft."

 

I also think some of us like pushing the edge of what is possible. It's not that big of a deal in the sim but can I get some function out of it? It is a challenge!

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 03-27-12)

Shane nailed it! It's the challenge, and it is attempting to build it as close to the real thing as possible. I am sure I will never have someone including myself try to pull them back in flight but just knowing it is there and it works is cool. I forgot to mention that this is another thing that we would need the relay card to make work. And it is one more thing that will make a "clicking" noise!

 

The real throttle levers currently lock out the reverse levers when they are in the CUT OFF position. They are really an amazing piece of engineering considering all that they do and don't allow in one position or the other.

 

Now to see if I can come up with "the missing link".

I think I would almost rather have my own design to work in the reverse lock out. I am being forced to work with what I have. After doing some more looking around, I had to go back to some old Adams Rite Aerospace Drawings. Here is a close up of the best clue I could find. It looks like it is a pull solenoid with a spring at the business end:

Ron 887

 

UPDATE:

I am over the hump with figuring this issue out.

 

UPDATED DRAWING TO SCALE!  (Right Click to enlarge)

Missing Link

 

The "missing link" is not as complicated as I thought it was going to be. This design will require a pull solenoid with a 10mm pull. The design work needs to be refined and proven!

 

These solenoids are designed to be energized for just a few seconds at a time.  They are not like relays where they can hold a position indefinitely as long as they are energized.  Solenoids can only be energized for short periods of time.  They put out a lot of heat and EMI, which by the way, we need to use EMF diodes to help isolate the electromagnetic energy the solenoids will be putting out.

 

(Posted by Alan Norris on 03-28-12)

Solenoids will stay in the position they are put in when energized and will stay that way until the energizing current is turned off. You can get them NO or NC (in switch terminology) as well as latching -- magnetic latching models for prolonged energized position applications.

 

NO = Normally Open

NC = Normally Closed

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 03-30-12)

To be clear with what we are trying to accomplish, the reverse thrust levers will not move or activate while the throttles are in any position including Idle while in the air flying. The idea is that there is no way that they could be accidentally deployed while in flight so the weight on wheels offset will be the key factor in determining if the solenoid locks out the reversers or not. So only when you are on the ground (weight on wheels) and in the idle position will the reverse thrust levers be available to deploy.

 

The thrust reversers are going to be all or none. In other words, you have to pull them all the way back and at that point, they will fully deploy. Nothing in between, all or none in my design anyway.

 

Here is a photo of the switch that I attached to the lever:

Ron 889

 

(Posted by Jorj Wausc on 03-31-12)

I think you are missing the mechanical locking system going into the center part from both sides and lock in 2 directions. When Revers is pulled it can not move fwd and when moved forward you can not pull reverser lever. (See attached picture.) To replicate the correct movement it is important to have the back of the reverser inlay mounted to the rod on the main shaft:

Jorj 1

 

(Posted by Eric Tomlin on 03-31-12)

On a side note and in case you were not aware, the LJ45 does not have an auto throttle and hence no need to have motorized throttle levers. This is good because it keeps it all much simpler. Motorized yokes and columns would be excellent though when AP is on!

 

(Posted by Alan Norris on 03-31-12)

If the LJ45 doesn't have auto throttles how does the AP control thrust? Also if the levers do not move, how would the pilot know what position they are in relative to the AP setting?

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 03-31-12)

As for the autothrottle, the Lear 45 does not have an autothrottle. The throttle will not move on its own without the pilot or co-pilot physically moving the throttle levers. Eric will be able to explain this better as he is the systems guru.

 

Do not rely on FS having the Lear modeled correctly in its systems operations such as the autopilot, its not. I have made that mistake in the past myself. Jason and Eric have been working for quite a while to correctly model the way the AP should work for the Lear. That is why JET45 is such an important piece of software for us builders so we can have a correct flight package.

 

(Posted by Eric Williams on 03-31-12)

The Lear does not have auto throttle in real life- but in FSX it indeed does. In real life it has s "speed control" which will use pitch to vary the IAS of the aircraft at the current throttle setting. There is a pretty good explanation in the resources/FAQ section on this site. For detailed info check out the flight manuals for the real Lear. It will become clear as mud.

 

As for thrust reverse- Assign any control to Throttle Decrease Quickly (or hold F2) and it will work for you on the Lear. Other ways to do it, but this will get you going.

 

(Posted by Eric Tomlin on 03-31-12)

And please note, in order for this to work at all in the real plane or when we try to create it in Jet45, the SPD, FLC, and VS modes ONLY work when you've dialed in a different altitude than what the aircraft is currently at, otherwise it won't enter those modes.

 

(Posted by Alan Norris on 04-01-12)

If you can input a desired speed using the SPEED function on the AP when you have gained your desired altitude, how does the aircraft maintain that speed without varying the power that the engines put out. I'll try and answer my own question by saying that the AP varies the power settings for the engines via the DEEC (Digital Electronic Engine Control) and not by changing the throttle positions. If this is the case, does the SPEED function of the AP disengage if the pilot changes the throttle lever settings? If the AP is maintaining a set speed regardless of the throttle lever position and the pilot disengages the AP does the engine thrust immediately return to that which the throttle lever positions were in prior to engaging the AP? How does the pilot know where to set the throttle levers to maintain the same speed prior to disconnecting the AP so there is no sudden change?

 

(Posted by Eric Tomlin on 04-01-12)

Hey Alan, go back and read the caveat at the bottom of my post above and read carefully. SPD mode ONLY works when in a climb or decent, hence every example in the link I gave describes transitioning from level to climb or decent.

 

BTW, your hypotheses is not too far from what I originally contrived back several years ago until I finally figured out how it works, and then confirmed on the same visit with N430FX and her crew at KTLH. Rest assured, there will be a video explanation if we implement the SPD function in the Jet45 FGC module.

(Posted by Jeff Peters on 10-17-15)

Has anyone seen the Lear45 throttle quadrant by Throttletek?  Could be another option available to us.

http://www.throttletek.com/products.html

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 10-17-15)

Looking at it from the outside, the light plate from left to right is correct, other than that, it looks good with the exception of the reverser knobs and the parking brake handle. But we can deal with that. The question is what is under the hood?

 

If I were to get these and I was not happy with a few of the minor details, I would look into swapping them out with my own custom made parts. Just about everything in my sim that I got from another builder has been modified to my own personal satisfaction.

 

This throttle quadrant is no different. I might also revisit the parking brake and make another flaps handle. But all in all, it looks great. And if it works as good as it looks, you are where you want to be!

 

(Posted by Jeff Peters on 10-17-15)

Very True Ron. I haven't checked the numbers yet but I am guessing that the Throttletek unit width will equal the outside dimension of the furniture meaning I would have to cut out the sides of the quadrant or take apart the Throttletek and work it into existing furniture. But happily I'm not their yet so these thoughts can sit on the back burner for the moment.

 

(Posted by Alan Norris on 10-28-15)

I heard back from them and the unit measures 8.149" wide x 7.5 long x 9.84" high. I don't have dimensions of the real ones. How does that compare? They said that the thrust levers don't have detents for the various power settings but they can include them.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 10-28-15)

The only number that can be measured with certainty is the width which I believe is 8.25" wide. The TQ pedestal is 8.25" wide so that number of 8.149" is close enough and as a matter of fact may be perfect.

 

The other measurements are unknown mostly because it depends on where one person takes the measurements compared to what another person thinks it should be measured from. I said it before and I'll say it again, if I did not have a TQ throttle set I would get these with the idea that we may need to make a few minor adjustments and changes. These look great!

 

As for the light plate for the Project45 TQ, I have something cooking in my head and really looking forward to getting to work on this again. I will build a prototype for my sim and then a prototype based on the Throttletek version if you end up getting it to insure it fits into the Project45 TQ design.

 

If all goes well Eric will do the production so that everyone's lighting matches current panels, voltage requirements are met and of course the color of gray matches. I am really looking forward to it!

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 11-11-16)

About a month ago, the left dust cover slider in my TQ module broke at the weakest point while Greg was down visiting. I am not sure how it broke but in any case, it is in two pieces. It could have been from the constant sliding back and forth or it could have been caught on something and failed. Either way, it needs to be replaced:

Ron 890

 

It took me a few weeks but I finally found the source for the plastic we need for our dust cover sliders:

Ron 891

 

1/16" x 24" x 48" Gray PVC Sheet

Item Id: 231507052833

Transaction Id 1377125177013

Quantity: 1 (Found on eBay)

 

This is more than enough material to make 24 sets of TQ dust cover sliders. So if your Project45 sliders happen to break at any point in the future, just send me an email me and I will send you a couple replacements.

 

There are five reasons why it was so hard to find the perfect material for the dust cover sliders:

1. The material must be .06" thick (1/16th")

2. The material must be a gray color.

3. The material must be flexible enough to bend in the slider channel.

4. The material must be soft enough to cut with an Exacto knife.

5. The material must be strong enough not to snap or break in use.

 

After I got my TQ module out of the sim and discovered that the second one (Engine 2) was getting ready to give way in the same place. So until we can find a better solution, if you are using dust cover sliders with the real TQ parts, be prepared for them to fail at around 200 hours of flying. And if they do fail, no worries, I have plenty of dust cover slider material to send your way.  So it goes without saying that both of mine are getting replaced today.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 01-16-17)

Maciej took the plunge and purchased a Throttletek Lear45 TQ. To say the least, Maciej was not impressed with the quality and the functionality of the unit so I offered to take it on to see what I could do with it

 

So I have been working on revamping Maciej's TQ module that he order and received a few months ago. In the photos, it does not look bad at all. However, the operation of the module and what is under the light cover is not satisfactory. In addition to the less than par quality, the other issue is fitting the TQ module into the TQ pedestal that we have designed. Here are a few photos of the TQ module that Maciej has temporarily installed in his TQ pedestal:

Maciej 5

 

Maciej 6

 

To see more photos of Maciej's project and get a closer look at his TQ module before the update that I am applying to it, go  HERE 

 

This past week I got a pretty good start on designing a hybrid version of his TQ module to bring it up to speed with the quality and fit that we are looking for and I got a few parts cut. First, thanks to Shane for sending me his parking brake assembly to work into the design! Basically, I am using several parts from my TQ kit to make this work. I did have to design one major part that I have nicknamed the "TQ Heart Plate".

 

Here are a few photos of what I have so far:

Ron 892

 

Here you can see the TQ Heart Plate. In it is the fuel Cut Off notch and the other detents including the APR. This one is a prototype just to dial in the detents. The real one will be thicker and include the inside dust covers channels on both sides:

Ron 893

 

I have replaced the pins with larger tapered pins. I will also rewire the throttle handles using 22 gauge wire and use shrink tube to prevent issues down the road with shorting:

Ron 894

 

Like my other TQ kit, this one will also include the dust cover sliders. Here are the outer dust cover slider channels. The inner channels will be built into the TQ Heart Plate:

Ron 895

 

Last but not least, here is a close up view of the parking brake assembly embedded into the left wooden plate. This parking brake has a two inch pull and twist in both directions just like the real one. A big improvement over what came with the original TQ module.

More updates soon.

 

(Posted by Maciej on 01-16-17)

That is looking very promising!  It is amazing what knowledge, ideas and tools in RIGHT HANDS can do. Way to go Ron!

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 01-25-17)

Quick update on the TQ module that I am working on for Maciej.

 

Maciej, we are past promising! Thanks for the comments! With that said, this first photos looks like a pipe b.o.m.b. went off in the TQ module you sent me:

Ron 896

 

But the more a dug into it, the more I realized that I had to break it down to nothing. The sad thing about this rebuild is that it looks like I will only be using about 20% of the original TQ module that you sent me. But this is what needs to happen to meet our expectations.

 

Here is a better picture and not as scary as the first:

Ron 897

The center plate is .38" thick and includes the detents like the real one does.

 

The spacing is now correct. By the way, in this photo, you can see that I remover the roller pins that were pasted on the sides of the throttle levers that were being used as detent mechanisms. No need for them any longer:

Ron 898

 

I had to reshape some internal parts in the throttle levers to get them to work smoother. I will take some photos of that work the next time I have them apart.

 

I have added fuel cut off switches. I do not believe that the TQ module that you sent me had these included:

Ron 899

 

A closer look at some of the detents and the dust cover slider slots built into the center plate:

Ron 900

 

Last but not least, I have started on the flaps bucket. It is the same design as what I used in the TQ kits a few years back. The flaps bucket that came with the TQ module will not be used. I have the flaps gate and the spoilers gate cut already

 

Okay, with all this work that I am putting into this TQ, I have decided to go all the way with a new design for future builders. So my immediate goal is to finish this TQ module for Maciej and complete the CAD work for future TQ builds. This was something that I was not planning on doing but at this point, I have the whole thing designed with the exception of the throttle handles. I will also try to design an easy way to add the reverse locks. That will be tough but I will look into it. More updates in a week!

 

(Posted by Maciej on 01-26-17)

As much as I am excited for the progress you making on the TQ, I feel really really bad that I put you through it. I am sorry...

 

There is pretty much nothing you managed to salvage from TQ that I ordered and received. I am not sure how long its going to take me to get over how much financial resources got wasted on it. Lesson learned.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 01-26-17)

Hey Maciej, it is my pleasure to do this sort of stuff. For me it is like a puzzle. I love working through problems like this and I like helping proactive guys like you out. I knew exactly what I was getting into when I took this on for you. Don't feel like the money spent on the TQ module from overseas was a waste of money. Someone in this group had to take the chance and you did! So thank you for that. Now we all know.

 

The silver lining from all this is that I have decided to build a Project45 TQ module for future builders who will get a solid piece of equipment. And in the end, you will have a solid piece of equipment with tech support right here in the USA!

 

(Posted by Eric Tomlin on 01-26-17)

Maciej, I'm sorry that you spent that much too but like Ron said, somehow it will be of good use to others. In fact, now that Ron is offering a TQ module, this really kind of seals up the LJ45's biggest gap. This is exciting! Thanks Ron for being willing to take it on.

 

(Posted by Maciej on 01-27-17)

I see it same way Eric. Undeniable benefit for our community.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 02-03-17)

I really wish someone would have took the TQ on where you left off Mark. We needed someone to to build a quality TQ module that will fit in our TQ pedestal and works properly. But at this point, I have decided to take it on myself to insure both fit and quality. The TQ that Maciej purchased several months ago lacks greatly in both areas. It would make a great static display but that is about it.

 

So on to the weekly update. Believe it or not, a higher priority project has fallen onto my plate over the past few days and again, my time is divided. But this higher priority project will benefit all of us and everyone who has invested into it will appreciate the efforts put into it by the individuals involved. Enough about that tease!

 

With that said, I only had enough time to work on the flaps bucket and handle. Although the only photos that I have worth showing are of the flaps bucket.  Notice that the flaps gate is in place:

Ron 901

 

I used .75" thick MDF and .125" thick Masonite to create this bucket. Notice the four dummy screws? Small details that make the part come to life.  The outer aluminum plate is just resting on to of the bucket. I first have to sand and then prime then bucket a few times:

Ron 902

 

UPDATE:

Sorry for the delay in updating this thread. I got derailed with another blown driver chip on my CNC. The good news is I am finally switching over to newer technology that supposedly has over current and over heating protection. So maybe my blown driver chips are a thing of the past??

 

Anyway, here is an update on the TQ module. I was able to finish up with the flaps bucket, lever and mechanisms. I still need to cut the handle once the CNC is back up on line. The feel of the detents are perfect! I increased the size of the detents in the gate so that a .25 diameter pin falls into each of the slots. The spoiler gate was already set to accept a .25 diameter pin so now they both match. The positions of each of the detents in the flaps gate were not changed. In other words, the position of each gate is exactly the same as what it was before! Also notice that a 1K slider potentiometer is set and in place with a mini push rod:

Ron 903

 

The flaps bucket is primed and nearly ready for final paint. Once the entire TQ module is complete, everything will be painted with Model Master Gunship Gray:

Ron 904

 

The flaps bucket comes complete with the four replica screws. Notice the access hole in the outer aluminum plate? This hole is there so that the handle can be attached to the lever just like on the real one:

Ron 905

 

Next I will advance the spoiler handle and lever. I have a good start on it and it will be done in the same fashion as the flaps lever. Keep an eye out for it!

The past two weeks I have been on a role working on the TQ module now that I am officially finished with my career as a police officer.  I have decided to take the TQ module head on and develop a fully operational replica without using any real parts or parts from other outside sources.  This is one of the missing links to our Lear45 sim project but very shortly, this problem will be resolved.

Within the next eight weeks, I will have four complete TQ modules ready to be shipped out and all the tooling to quickly make more to meet the demand.  These TQ modules are designed to drop right into my TQ pedestal design so no worries there.  The cost for a set will be approximately $1,200.  The curved light plate that will come later will be $295.  Two TQ modules are already accounted for.  If you would like to get on the build list, please post here or email me.

In the meantime, here are some cool photos of the recent work on the TQ module.  The photo below is the flaps handle.  The one in the bottom left is the real flaps lever and all the others are replicas made with four pieces of cast plastic sandwich together.  The one on the bottom right is a replica from the TQ assembly that Maciej sent me early last year.  I will replace his with one of my replica knobs!

 

Here is the flaps knob in place on the custom lever and gate.

 

Another hard to replicate part is the spoiler knob.  At least I though it was going to be difficult.  I found an easy way to replicate them by using two pieces of 3/8th inch thick cast plastic sandwich together.  The one in the top right corner is the real deal.  All the others are replicas in the early stages.

 

The CNC does the basic shape cutting.  Then I glue the pieces together with superglue.  I did a stress test on the bond.  Only after applying 100 times more force than we will ever put on these parts, the plastic failed, but not the superglue bond!  The next step is to mark the parts and then work them on the bench sander below.

 

Here is a photo of the four TQ module sets to date.  Keep in mind that with the exception of the screws, Nylon standoffs and switches, everything you see in this photo is fabricated either using the CNC, power tools or by hand.  At this point I am about 33% complete with these four sets and on a role with them.  I will post another update on these at the end of next week!

 

 

Looking really really good!! Level of ingenuity you represent is beyond and above. This is highly sophisticated mechanical part that you absolutely nailed! I bet it works better than original.

 

Awesome work as usual Ron!  Definitely a much needed part in our hobby and excited to see the TQ offered to our builders!

Thanks guys!  Lots of thought and hard work is going into this TQ module design for sure.  I think I can say I am over the hump with it.  Along the way, I have developed new ways to make parts that had me stumped in the past.  Now with a few extra building techniques in my toolbox of ideas, I am looking forward to finishing this thing!

Another week of progress.  This week I finished up the spoilers, started the work on the throttle knobs and completed the work on the reverser knobs.  The following information might seem like a bit much but I want to document some of the finer points for other builders who might want to take these on themselves in the future.

Here is an overall photo of the four TQ module sets and some associated hardware.  Right click on any of the photos to blow them up to get a closer look:

 

The spoiler knobs turned out second only to the real thing!  Take a look at these photos compared to a real spoiler knob:

 

One thing that slipped my mind as I was building up the spoiler assembly is that they have to be built within .875" off of the wooden jig.  The reason being is that the inside wall of the left TQ pedestal is right there.  You can see how close it is by looking at earlier photos in this thread.  The photo below illustrates what I thought was a good idea on the left, and what I had to do to make it fit on the right:

 

Basically I moved the spoiler gate onto the other side of the lever.  Things are so tight in this area that even the height of the 8-32 nut matters.  I had to use the shorter 8-32 nut seen here below on the right:

 

Next I got a pretty good start on the throttle knobs.  I have the end plates and the push button switches complete.   By the way, the authentic Otto push button switches are super expensive, like a much as $60 per switch.  I managed to find a suitable Otto switch that was only $22 per unit.  Here is the start of the throttle knobs:

 

The reverser knobs were made in the same fashion as the flaps and spoiler knobs by gluing four pieces of cast plastic together with Superglue and then spinning them on a drill like a lathe machine to shape them properly:

 

After tapping the threads into the knob, I simply screw the knob onto a threaded rod and spin it with a drill.  Using marks on the knob helps to find the high points and knock them down with a file:

 

Last but not least, here are eight reverser knobs painted up and ready to be installed on the reverser arms that are not yet built:

 

Next week I I will be working on the throttle knob body and the reverser levers!  I will have an update on this thread next Friday!

Just a quick update on whats new.

This past week I got sidetracked looking for a particular tool in the workshop and decided to get things organized once and for all.  As you may know, the workshop was my late father's who passed away October 19th 2017.  We shared the workshop space for our many various projects.  We have a mix of new tools and old tools dating back almost a 100 years.  Some of them like a hand crank drill belonged to my father's father!

So as I am going through the workshop, there are a lot of memories and sentimental items that I am coming across.  I am finding tools that I have not seen in years and parts of tools to make other ones usable again.  Lots and lots of duplicates and obsolete tools too.

So the end goal here is to make the workshop super efficient to where I can find what I am looking for within a second or two instead of minutes or not at all!  Additionally, I am putting together a couple keep sake tool boxes in memory of my father and my papa.

I should squared away and back to work on the TQ modules next week!


Comments are closed, but trackbacks and pingbacks are open.