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P3D demise ?

#11 · December 7, 2025, 9:28 am

Quote from Ron Rollo on December 7, 2025, 9:28 am
Good news Mark!

I am happy to see P3D is continuing with their products. As you know, I just recently installed P3D v5 and was planning to use this sim until the Just Flight Lear45 was released for MSFS2020/2024.

But I have to say, when I first opened the P3D v5 sim a few weeks ago, I was very disappointed to see that for the most part, the visuals and the performance was no better than my P3D v2 initial setup from 10 years ago. It's not until you spend a couple hundred bucks on Orbx scenery and other addons until the sim starts to look satisfactory. And even then, it's disappointing compared to what you get out of the box with MSFS2020.

Lockheed Martin/Prepar3D has been using the same base sim engine (MS FSX) from 2008 and honestly, the roots of that sim go back prior to 2004. In other words, the brand new sim P3D just released is over 20 years old. I don't want to knock P3D too hard because it's still a great simulator that arguably has the easiest way for third party developers to create addons, it's just that the outside visuals can only be pushed so far until they hit the wall. I think P3D has been at that wall for several years now.

Since Prepar3D acquired the rights to FSX, it has been packaged as a "training tool" for military outfits and from the screen shots they recently posted, they are leaning into military training even harder now. It could be considered a "War Games" simulator but focusing on the technical, procedural and strategic aspects of it. For crying out loud, in their next release we might see that they have added ICBM launch simulations. They already have the subs modeled. (Or maybe this is already modeled? What do I know.)

P3D's roots began as a flight sim and we will always be able to use it as such, but these days, it has a much different purpose as a military training tool that we just happen can still use as a flight simulator. The thing that we have to realize is that the performance and visuals may get slightly better from release to release, but the sim over all will always be the same base sim engine until they acquire the rights to another simulator. (It doesn't have to be another MS product by the way.)

Bottom line, us full scale Lear45 builder are in a unique situation because we are locked into this ONE aircraft and really have no choice but to fly with P3D....for now. 95% of all flight sim enthusiast have moved on to MSFS2020/2024 for obvious reasons meanwhile, we have been temporarily "left behind" where we can clearly see the difference between the old sim technology and new sim tech. I guess in that aspect we are lucky!

All that to say......MSFS2020/2024 is our future but thank goodness for P3D continuing to support the older sim technology.

Good news Mark!

I am happy to see P3D is continuing with their products. As you know, I just recently installed P3D v5 and was planning to use this sim until the Just Flight Lear45 was released for MSFS2020/2024.

But I have to say, when I first opened the P3D v5 sim a few weeks ago, I was very disappointed to see that for the most part, the visuals and the performance was no better than my P3D v2 initial setup from 10 years ago. It's not until you spend a couple hundred bucks on Orbx scenery and other addons until the sim starts to look satisfactory. And even then, it's disappointing compared to what you get out of the box with MSFS2020.

Lockheed Martin/Prepar3D has been using the same base sim engine (MS FSX) from 2008 and honestly, the roots of that sim go back prior to 2004. In other words, the brand new sim P3D just released is over 20 years old. I don't want to knock P3D too hard because it's still a great simulator that arguably has the easiest way for third party developers to create addons, it's just that the outside visuals can only be pushed so far until they hit the wall. I think P3D has been at that wall for several years now.

Since Prepar3D acquired the rights to FSX, it has been packaged as a "training tool" for military outfits and from the screen shots they recently posted, they are leaning into military training even harder now. It could be considered a "War Games" simulator but focusing on the technical, procedural and strategic aspects of it. For crying out loud, in their next release we might see that they have added ICBM launch simulations. They already have the subs modeled. (Or maybe this is already modeled? What do I know.)

P3D's roots began as a flight sim and we will always be able to use it as such, but these days, it has a much different purpose as a military training tool that we just happen can still use as a flight simulator. The thing that we have to realize is that the performance and visuals may get slightly better from release to release, but the sim over all will always be the same base sim engine until they acquire the rights to another simulator. (It doesn't have to be another MS product by the way.)

Bottom line, us full scale Lear45 builder are in a unique situation because we are locked into this ONE aircraft and really have no choice but to fly with P3D....for now. 95% of all flight sim enthusiast have moved on to MSFS2020/2024 for obvious reasons meanwhile, we have been temporarily "left behind" where we can clearly see the difference between the old sim technology and new sim tech. I guess in that aspect we are lucky!

All that to say......MSFS2020/2024 is our future but thank goodness for P3D continuing to support the older sim technology.

#12 · December 7, 2025, 7:15 pm

After using X-Plane 12 for awhile now, I find it's much easier to use, takes much less resources and flight characteristics are more real. Unfortunately, there is no Lear 45.

Once you start setting up your external views, you may struggle. The scenery is exquisite but aligning among multiple monitors is proplematic. Here's a write-up.

My experience switching over to X-Plane 12 from MSFS 2020
byu/PlanespottingArg2 inflightsim

Yes, megascenery or orbx may cost, but for performance and aircraft real performance, you may be better off staying with P3D. I would have stayed, but RealSimGear no longer supports P3D or FSX for their G1000.

Ron Rollo has reacted to this post.

#13 · December 7, 2025, 10:01 pm

Quote from Ron Rollo on December 7, 2025, 10:01 pm
Hey Dave,

Have you seen this thread?

https://hangar45.net/hangar-45-forum/topic/lear45-in-fs2020-troubleshooting?part=7#postid-2242

It's a Lear45 model finally in MSFS2020, well, actually a CJ4 wrapped in a Lear45 skin with a mix of Lear45 panels and CJ4 displays. It's certainly not perfect but this gets us hardcore Lear45 guys into the MSFS2020/2024 sim finally to do some testing ahead of the JF Lear45 "Professional". We have only been waiting for nearly six years while everyone else has been moving forward.

Over the past couple weeks I have been doing a TON of test flying with the Lear45 in P3D v5 and this new Lear45 in MSFS2020 while installing a bunch of addon airport scenery. I have been going back and forth from one sim to the other several times a day and honestly, the difference between the two are negligible when it comes to flight modeling. As a matter of fact, some of the flight characteristics are more realistic in the Lear45 (based on the CJ4) in MSFS2020.

As an example, a stall situation in P3D flying the Lear45 model is not a big deal, but it should be. On the other hand, the first time I stalled in the Lear45 (CJ4) in MSFS2020, the plane fell out of the sky sideways and I was not able to recover because it was during final on a landing. Since that priceless lesson, I have been paying very close attention to my speeds in MSFS2020, because it does not play.

One thing I need to do the next time I am flying in P3D is to try to replicate that deadly stall condition to see if the results are the same as what I experienced flying in MSFS2020.

I am not a real world pilot nor have I ever flown the Lear45 in real life, but from what I am seeing, the difference between the two is like driving a Toyota Camry compared to a Nissan Altima. I have driven both of these vehicles and it would be difficult to know which one you were driving if it were a blind driving test.

If there is a difference between P3D and MSFS2020 when it comes to the flight modeling, it's negligible. And if it turns out to be something we can't live with, we can always tune the flight configuration file to mimic something we perceive as being closer to what we would expect to see.

As for the outside visuals in MSFS2020, Mark has pretty much got the sorted out. He still has a little work to do but he has already proven it can be done. (Mark, if you get some free time, can you post up a video of your visual system in MSFS2020?)

At this point in time, I am putting all my resources into MSFS2020 until one of us comes up with a really good reason why a Lear45 will not work in MSFS2020 or MSFS2024.

Hey Dave,

Have you seen this thread?

https://hangar45.net/hangar-45-forum/topic/lear45-in-fs2020-troubleshooting?part=7#postid-2242

It's a Lear45 model finally in MSFS2020, well, actually a CJ4 wrapped in a Lear45 skin with a mix of Lear45 panels and CJ4 displays. It's certainly not perfect but this gets us hardcore Lear45 guys into the MSFS2020/2024 sim finally to do some testing ahead of the JF Lear45 "Professional". We have only been waiting for nearly six years while everyone else has been moving forward.

Over the past couple weeks I have been doing a TON of test flying with the Lear45 in P3D v5 and this new Lear45 in MSFS2020 while installing a bunch of addon airport scenery. I have been going back and forth from one sim to the other several times a day and honestly, the difference between the two are negligible when it comes to flight modeling. As a matter of fact, some of the flight characteristics are more realistic in the Lear45 (based on the CJ4) in MSFS2020.

As an example, a stall situation in P3D flying the Lear45 model is not a big deal, but it should be. On the other hand, the first time I stalled in the Lear45 (CJ4) in MSFS2020, the plane fell out of the sky sideways and I was not able to recover because it was during final on a landing. Since that priceless lesson, I have been paying very close attention to my speeds in MSFS2020, because it does not play.

One thing I need to do the next time I am flying in P3D is to try to replicate that deadly stall condition to see if the results are the same as what I experienced flying in MSFS2020.

I am not a real world pilot nor have I ever flown the Lear45 in real life, but from what I am seeing, the difference between the two is like driving a Toyota Camry compared to a Nissan Altima. I have driven both of these vehicles and it would be difficult to know which one you were driving if it were a blind driving test.

If there is a difference between P3D and MSFS2020 when it comes to the flight modeling, it's negligible. And if it turns out to be something we can't live with, we can always tune the flight configuration file to mimic something we perceive as being closer to what we would expect to see.

As for the outside visuals in MSFS2020, Mark has pretty much got the sorted out. He still has a little work to do but he has already proven it can be done. (Mark, if you get some free time, can you post up a video of your visual system in MSFS2020?)

At this point in time, I am putting all my resources into MSFS2020 until one of us comes up with a really good reason why a Lear45 will not work in MSFS2020 or MSFS2024.

#14 · December 8, 2025, 7:18 am

Quote from Mark Speechley on December 8, 2025, 7:18 am
Hi all,

Time to chime in.

Let me first say that X Plane, whilst it was the stiff competition for P3D and the earlier FSX, was really a choice between Chevy and Ford. You really couldn't afford to be in both camps, financially. I chose the P3D route and invested majorly, There wouldn't be too many people who have invested the amount of money in hardware and software in P3D than I have. So I suppose I have become a bit of an expert in P3D V5.4. People who have seen my setup have been in awe. But. You needed to invest a significant amount of money to get P3D to 'approach' MSFS and probably X Plane. With the advent of VR my flight crew started flying in P3D. Mine looked pretty good but the others considered the graphics basic. Then along came MSFS, which changed everything. Once MSFS was flyable in VR we all swapped over..... and never looked back. Out of the block we had wonderful scenery without having to spend hundreds of dollars. I am continuing the journey with MSFS2024, but awaiting the next major update.

Jet45 has served us all terrifically through P3D and now that we are trialling it in 2020 it has stood up well. There is some tweaks needed by Jason but all in all it is functional. I have completed two 30 min flights and successfully landed using the Learjet45 from flightsim.to. I have the warping from the three projectors down pat now, so once you have the projector coordinates and zoom dialled in you are set.

Now the flight characteristic of the two Learjets. I can tell you that the Private flights Learjet for P3D, once you tweaked the cfg file was a great plane. How do I know that ? Because one of my flight crew is a Commercial Pilot and has his own RV8 plane. The stopgap plane we now have for 2020 has gotten us all in the air. It's flight characteristic below 150 kts can be death defying, as Ron has experienced. But you know what, it forces you to fly like a pilot, not an automated push button pilot. Oh yes we have started tweaking the cfg file but you'd be surprised how fast that brain of ours adapts. At best, it is our plane, until Just Flight taxies in, or at worst, we'll have the cfg settings sorted and we'll still get to Nirvana.

So, X Plane conversion. Why bother. We are on the road to Damascus now and Ron, Jason, Eric, Shane, Randy, Vince, Will, Terry and all the other pioneers can now see the vision on the horizon we were all hoping for. Microsoft's resources and now almost all of the software flight simulation houses have invested in the future of MSFS, so I am now confident that we are backing the right horse.

With P3D announcing the next iteration 'Fusion'. That can only be another option down the track for all of us. It has the Unreal engine 5 and the backing of Blackshark, users of MSFS see on every startup. It is an investment in the training of the armed forces and hence the financial backing would be gi-normous. Technology mandates training and I look forward to the public version, if it is still relevant to us.

Seeing is believing. I will post a video of us flying in 2020, 2 weeks ago, in the Hangar45 Facebook page. For those who don't have access I'll convert the video and post here soonish.

Feel free to ask questions or sling arrows.

Cheers

Mark S.

p.s. I'm a Ford guy

Hi all,

Time to chime in.

Let me first say that X Plane, whilst it was the stiff competition for P3D and the earlier FSX, was really a choice between Chevy and Ford. You really couldn't afford to be in both camps, financially. I chose the P3D route and invested majorly, There wouldn't be too many people who have invested the amount of money in hardware and software in P3D than I have. So I suppose I have become a bit of an expert in P3D V5.4. People who have seen my setup have been in awe. But. You needed to invest a significant amount of money to get P3D to 'approach' MSFS and probably X Plane. With the advent of VR my flight crew started flying in P3D. Mine looked pretty good but the others considered the graphics basic. Then along came MSFS, which changed everything. Once MSFS was flyable in VR we all swapped over..... and never looked back. Out of the block we had wonderful scenery without having to spend hundreds of dollars. I am continuing the journey with MSFS2024, but awaiting the next major update.

Jet45 has served us all terrifically through P3D and now that we are trialling it in 2020 it has stood up well. There is some tweaks needed by Jason but all in all it is functional. I have completed two 30 min flights and successfully landed using the Learjet45 from flightsim.to. I have the warping from the three projectors down pat now, so once you have the projector coordinates and zoom dialled in you are set.

Now the flight characteristic of the two Learjets. I can tell you that the Private flights Learjet for P3D, once you tweaked the cfg file was a great plane. How do I know that ? Because one of my flight crew is a Commercial Pilot and has his own RV8 plane. The stopgap plane we now have for 2020 has gotten us all in the air. It's flight characteristic below 150 kts can be death defying, as Ron has experienced. But you know what, it forces you to fly like a pilot, not an automated push button pilot. Oh yes we have started tweaking the cfg file but you'd be surprised how fast that brain of ours adapts. At best, it is our plane, until Just Flight taxies in, or at worst, we'll have the cfg settings sorted and we'll still get to Nirvana.

So, X Plane conversion. Why bother. We are on the road to Damascus now and Ron, Jason, Eric, Shane, Randy, Vince, Will, Terry and all the other pioneers can now see the vision on the horizon we were all hoping for. Microsoft's resources and now almost all of the software flight simulation houses have invested in the future of MSFS, so I am now confident that we are backing the right horse.

With P3D announcing the next iteration 'Fusion'. That can only be another option down the track for all of us. It has the Unreal engine 5 and the backing of Blackshark, users of MSFS see on every startup. It is an investment in the training of the armed forces and hence the financial backing would be gi-normous. Technology mandates training and I look forward to the public version, if it is still relevant to us.

Seeing is believing. I will post a video of us flying in 2020, 2 weeks ago, in the Hangar45 Facebook page. For those who don't have access I'll convert the video and post here soonish.

Feel free to ask questions or sling arrows.

Cheers

Mark S.

p.s. I'm a Ford guy

DrDave has reacted to this post.

#15 · December 8, 2025, 7:50 am

Here you go, dusted off the cobwebs.

MSFS 2020 from 2 weeks ago.

A little teaser to get you all building faster.

https://youtube.com/shorts/kMm89vJuhew

AMD 7950x3d

Nvidia 4080 Super

64 gigs ram

Cheers

Mark S., Mark C. and Peter N.

Ron Rollo and DrDave have reacted to this post.

#16 · December 8, 2025, 8:29 am

Thanks Mark for posting the video! Proof we can all move forward in MSFS2020.

And great write up! I should have actually "read" the news article by Prepar3D they posted a few days ago but didn't bother because I thought it was going to be another minor improvement on things around the edges. But it sounds like they may have found a way to improve their graphics considerably even though they are still using the base FSX sim engine. A quote fro P3D:

“Prepar3D® Fuse provides unmatched synthetic training for the warfighter,” said Adam Breed, chief of innovation at Lockheed Martin. “By marrying our proven SAGE and Prepar3D® technologies with Unreal Engine’s real‑time graphics and Blackshark.ai’s global terrain, we give operators a high‑fidelity training environment while cutting development time and driving cost efficiencies.”

As you said Mark, if they release this version to the general public, which I think they will with time, it's another option for us in case we find a really good reason why we can't move forward in MSFS2020/2024.

Ha! For the record, I am a Chevy guy. But your right, Chevy vs Ford or Pepsi vs Coke or even Left Twix vs Right Twix, it boils down to choice and personal preference.

ps: I am a Left Twix guy

DrDave has reacted to this post.

#17 · December 8, 2025, 11:30 am

Mark, Ron,

In no way I am recommending X-Plane for Hangar45, just that there are issues with MSFS2020, especially stability and multi-monitor capability. After 2 years, it was driving me nuts. Especially in MSFS2024 which has a much better UI.

Mark,

If you could provide more insight on the details on how to "tune" external views, especially if you tried MSFS2024. I would go back.

As I said, I have several sim hardware components that now only support MSFS and X-Plane.

Ron Rollo has reacted to this post.

#18 · December 8, 2025, 11:57 am

Quote from Ron Rollo on December 8, 2025, 11:57 am
Hey Dave,

I agree with you, I have never tried X-Plane so I can't say one way or the other how it performs. I do however watch tons of videos of real world pilots who also moonlight as "Youtubers" doing flights in various "heavy" aircraft in both X-Plane and MSFS2020/2024. X-Plane looks like it performs great but the problem would be making the necessary changes to Jet45 to make it compatible with X-Plane. And as you pointed out, there is no Lear45 model in X-Plane, so it's a non starter.

It would be interesting if someone like Just Flight came along with an incredible Lear45 model that was compatible with nothing else but X-Plane. That would get our attention!

As for issues with MSFS2020, I am not seeing anything worth mentioning yet. It seems very stable to me. When I first installed it, the software did an evaluation of my hardware and determined I could go with "ultra" settings, or whatever is the next to the highest setting when it comes to visuals and graphics. I went with that and have not even had to open any of the setting to adjust anything yet. The framerates are so smooth that I am not even worried about tweaking or adjusting which honestly, is a refreshing and welcomed start to what is a new sim to me. (It's been out for over five years now)

I was forewarned by Mark that my eight year old GTX 1070 graphics card would struggle with the visuals. But so far it is handling the job and that includes busy high detailed airports like KMCO, KTPA, etc... I know that once I expand to the three projectors, I will have to upgrade the graphics card to a 3090, but for now, desktop simming with just one monitor during systems testing is working great.

Mark has turned into the ultimate guru when it comes to outside visuals and projection whether he realizes it or not! (I think he does though) We are lucky to have him in our corner to help and hopefully he will be able to give you enough information to get you up and running in MSFS. We need as many guys like you working the visual problem even if you are not flying the Lear45.

Hey Dave,

I agree with you, I have never tried X-Plane so I can't say one way or the other how it performs. I do however watch tons of videos of real world pilots who also moonlight as "Youtubers" doing flights in various "heavy" aircraft in both X-Plane and MSFS2020/2024. X-Plane looks like it performs great but the problem would be making the necessary changes to Jet45 to make it compatible with X-Plane. And as you pointed out, there is no Lear45 model in X-Plane, so it's a non starter.

It would be interesting if someone like Just Flight came along with an incredible Lear45 model that was compatible with nothing else but X-Plane. That would get our attention!

As for issues with MSFS2020, I am not seeing anything worth mentioning yet. It seems very stable to me. When I first installed it, the software did an evaluation of my hardware and determined I could go with "ultra" settings, or whatever is the next to the highest setting when it comes to visuals and graphics. I went with that and have not even had to open any of the setting to adjust anything yet. The framerates are so smooth that I am not even worried about tweaking or adjusting which honestly, is a refreshing and welcomed start to what is a new sim to me. (It's been out for over five years now)

I was forewarned by Mark that my eight year old GTX 1070 graphics card would struggle with the visuals. But so far it is handling the job and that includes busy high detailed airports like KMCO, KTPA, etc... I know that once I expand to the three projectors, I will have to upgrade the graphics card to a 3090, but for now, desktop simming with just one monitor during systems testing is working great.

Mark has turned into the ultimate guru when it comes to outside visuals and projection whether he realizes it or not! (I think he does though) We are lucky to have him in our corner to help and hopefully he will be able to give you enough information to get you up and running in MSFS. We need as many guys like you working the visual problem even if you are not flying the Lear45.

#19 · December 8, 2025, 2:03 pm

wow nice framerate!!

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