Forum Navigation
Please or Register to create posts and topics.

Screen and Visual System By Project45

(Original thread started on 01-30-11 by Ron Rollo)

I have been doing some homework on possible screen sizes. Here is a tutorial by Jon Boe:

http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/pcupload/Projector-Design-Tutorial.pdf

(You can also find this PDF file at the bottom of this post)

 

I have a few drawings that I wanted to share. The first one here is a 12 foot diameter screen:

Ron 377

 

This second drawing is the "Ivar version" which is a 7' 8.5" RAD or 15 foot 5" diameter. This set up projects all the way to the floor, which is 8 foot vertical. But the question is, is that necessary? The farther away the image is projected, you should lose resolution. But on the other hand, if the screen is right there in your face, then you will see the pixels. Another issue is the focal point. On tighter radius screens the focal point will become more out of focus at the left, right edge and in the center. On larger radius screens this problem becomes reduced but the pixels appear larger:

Ron 378

 

I am just going to have to get the short throw projectors and see which screen size will work best. What I think it is going to come down to for each of us is the space available to work within.

 

Another issue we need to think about is the distance of the screen to the projectors and radius of the screens. With a smaller radius and more of a curved screen, the image tends to bend on the sides of each projected image. This is because even with small radius projectors, it is hard to prevent the barrel distortion that any glass optic produces. Software's like Nthusim or Fly EliseNG are needed but even in this case very complex displacement of points is needed and the auto adjust feature is not perfect at all. A 15 foot screen diameter which would give you a ceiling to floor full visual would produce a better overall image and will help your eyes feel the outside view to the right distance. If nothing else, we have limitations on the screen radius no matter what your building.

 

12' RAD on the small side.  You would not want to go any smaller than that.  And 15' 5" RAD on the large side. This is the large limit because this gives you a floor to ceiling vertical view, given you have an 8' ceiling. I can't think of a reason to go larger than that.

 

One thing that I was concerned about was projecting over the top of the Lear45 shell if I decided to go with a 12' diameter set up. Additionally, the warping software can actually pull the image up and over the nose of the sim so that the projected image is not hitting the shell.

 

For those guys thinking about this route, the first thing that is going to determine which way your going to go is SPACE! I am fortunate that I have just barely enough room to build anything within the diameter limits of 12' and 15' 5". It is going to come down to playing and testing to see which way I prefer. And you know me, it is going to have to look good!

 

I have been thinking about this for months and today, I finally got to start it. The curved screen system!

 

Because of my limited space, I am going to go with basically a 6' RAD system. To be more precise, the viewing surface RAD is 5' 11.125". It will wrap around the sim 220 degrees and stretch from the floor to the ceiling, however, not all of the screen will be filled with image. The screen frame will be covered with a 24' X 8' screen canvass.

 

 

To start with, I found a tape measure with a hole to act like a pivot point. It was off set from the end by 3/4", so I had to compensate at the business end by the same amount:

Ron 379

 

With a steady hand, I drew three sets of lines, the first line, closest to the pivot point represents the viewing surface. The second line is set back 1/8th". This distance is the space that the 1/8th" Masonite 4' X 8' sheets will occupy. It also represents the front side of the wooden frame. The last line, furthest from the pivot point is the back side of the wooden frame:

Ron 380

 

You will also notice that I drew in the space that the 2" X 3/4" vertical frames pieces will occupy at the ends of the JIG. So with the vertical frame pieces included, the face of each section is 4 foot long, following the curve of course:

Ron 381

 

Here the JIG is complete and ready to go to work coping 18 pieces. There will be six sections, four foot wide each. Each section will require three wooden frames:

Ron 382

 

These are my screen legs. They are very short because my screen is going to cover from the floor to the ceiling. These little legs will give me about an inch of adjustments. Each section will have two of these legs:

Ron 383

 

UPDATE:  I went to the store and spent $150 on the materials. I picked up one 3/4" 4' X 8' sheet of plywood, 6 sheets of 1/8th" 4X8 white Masonite sheeting, 12 3/4" X 3" X 8's and 40 sets of nuts and bolts to hold it all together. (I'll also be using glue and a finishing nail gun to hold it all together.)

 

In this photo, I have traced out the jig several times over. I will be able to get more than enough pieces out of this 4' X 8'. I was planning on three pieces per 4 foot section, but I might make it 4 or even 5. Lots of jig sawing. Later will come the routing:

Ron 384

 

Photo of the materials and work done so far:

Ron 385

 

I have committed to a six foot tall screen that will be raised off the floor by two feet:

Ron 386

 

This is only one of six frame sections completed. They are a pain by myself, so I will wait until my father get back in town for that helping hand.  The frame looks flimsy and it is! The real strength will come after I attach the 4' X 6' panel to the face of the frame.

 

The frame is held together with glue and a finishing nail gun. Three nails per joint does the job:

Ron 387

 

To recap, I am building a 6 foot high by 24 foot long curved screen in a 6 foot radius. This will give me 220 degrees of view or FOV.  I finished assembling the six frame sections. I also have the face material cut to length, 73 inches tall and ready to go. The face material is stacked under the frames sections below:

Ron 388

 

I went ahead and numbered each section so that the bolt holes attaching them together will agree:

Ron 389

 

Here are sections 2 and 3 bolted together:

Ron 390

 

I clamped the frame sections together and then drilled the holes for the bolts. This way I am guaranteed that the bolts will line up properly. And the reason why they are numbered:

Ron 391

 

The alignment is perfect so far even though the garage floor my not be perfectly flat. Once the face of the frames are screwed into place, it may be a little difficult on the slopped floor because the frames will be perfectly square. This is not a big deal because the screen will be set up in the sim room where the floor is perfectly flat:

Ron 392

 

One thing to keep in mind is to check the radius of the frame. I can do this by using my JIG and bridging it across the seams of the frames:

Ron 393

 

And the money shot!

Ron 394

 

Next week I will have the face of the frames screwed on and then we will see what we have. I hope to have it up stairs in the sim room too at least temporarily set up.

 

I am using 1/8th inch thick Masonite for the face of the screen.  It is very flexible so no need for alternative way to bend the wood.  I purchased 300 screws to attach the six 4' X 6" faces to the frames.  I have also been doing some brain storming over the legs that the frame will sit on.  This will be adjustable up and down to fine tune the screen to insure it is level and square.

 

(Posted by Tom Goldberg on 02-14-11)

Hey Ron, I am at the point with researching projectors and screen materials or paint etc.  Here is a place with a wealth of information: http://www.projectorcentral.com

 

Here is a page with a very interesting article about choosing a paint that will work well with projectors read the whole thing its pretty informative:  http://www.projectorcentral.com/paint_perfect_screen_$100.htm

 

I have also been looking at projectors that will work properly with what we are trying to do and also hook up to a Triplehead2Go. So far the Benq MP 782 ST seems to be the best choice. The reason is it has the right native resolution to be able to work with Triplehead2Go and FSX. It also has a DVI input connector on the back. The units are just a little over $1,000 each and of course we will need three.

 

(Posted by Mark L. on 02-14-11)

After reading the article that Tom posted which was very good indeed, what are you planning on doing with the seams and the screw heads that are attaching the Masonite?

 

Uploaded files:
  • You need to login to have access to uploads.

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 02-14-11)

Thanks Tom and Mark for the info and questions. The projector info is right on track with what I want to do Tom.

 

As far as the seams go, my idea is that if I ever need to break it down to move it, I want to be able to do so without destroying caulking and sanding work. So my solution is to use a large 7' X 25' projector screen canvas. I found one on eBay for $169. Actually, it is 9' X 25'.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/9-x-25-B-ADEALS-PROJECTION-PROJECTOR-SCREEN-MATERIAL-/350439450577?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5197d1a7d1

 

If for some reason this screen material does not reflect the light from the projectors to my liking, I will simply paint it! This way it is seamless and I can break it down if I need to.

 

In other screen news, I am currently working on the adjustable legs to the frame sections. There will be twelve, two for each section.

 

Over the past few days, I have been thinking and gathering parts for the legs of the screen frames. Because I am going to do a 6 foot screen system off of the floor, I needed to build adjustable legs. The idea is to clamp the screen between the ceiling and the floor.

 

Here is a picture of most of the hardware I needed, however, I had to return a few things after rethinking:

Ron 395

 

Here is a photo of some of the updated hardware. I changed my mind on how the feet were going to work:

Ron 396

 

I had to grind the eye hook so that it would fit into the rubber chair boot:

Ron 397

 

Here is the before and after photo of the foot. I need twelve of these, two for each frame section:

Ron 398

 

I added 1.5" of wooden blocks for a total of 2.25" for the rod to attach to. I am using lock washers so that nothing backs out with time:

Ron 399

 

Now for the fun part, placing the face onto the frame! I used a weight in the middle to help the face bend to shape. I started screwing the face down on one side making sure the edges were flush. Then I went to the top making sure that edge was square and flush. Moving on to the center piece and then the bottom. Last but not least the far side. As hard as I tried to cut the frame parts so that everything fit perfectly, the face ended up hanging over by about a 1/16th inch at the bottom and the last side that I did. But no big deal, the hand held router took care of the scrap!

Ron 400

 

Here you can't see some of the screw heads because I covered the other half with a small white sticker. This is a temporary thing so that if I do get the projectors up, I won't see them. Eventually the canvass will cover the screw heads and the seams:

Ron 401

 

And a pic of the back side in case you were wondering what it looked like:

Ron 402

 

Benq is the projector to beat!  And now for the installation of the curved screen system into my sim room:

Ron 403

 

At first, I thought I had to go back to the drawing board with my adjustable legs. But after I got the whole screen up and adjusted, it works perfectly. I had to teach myself a few tricks. I will be taking it down sometime in the near future because I want to replace the carpet. So it should not be a big deal now that I have it dialed in.

Ron 404

 

The adjusters came in handy at the ceiling also. I had to adjust two of them out because the ceiling is not perfectly flat.  I had to nearly step out of the room to get the whole thing in the picture! That's a good thing. In this photo, the shell is backed out of the screen area:

Ron 405

 

And here the shell is pushed into it's final resting place. I have 100% coverage from both of the pilot's POV!  (I still need to cover the screen with a canvas and add a little curtain along the bottom.)  Overall, I am very happy with the way this turned out and I am looking forward to getting the projectors dad doing some testing. Hope you enjoy the photos!

 

(Posted by Mark L. on 02-22-11)

I can give you this first hand information on NTHUSIM.

The app is freely available to download and use in time limited demo mode. What that means is you can get all your setup worked out using NTHUSIM before even buying it.

NTHUSIM is a dedicated consumer product, unlike Warpalizer. NTHUSIM is coded from the ground up to be a non-commercial product and be updated on a regular basis with consumer requests. NTHUSIM does not seek to be a catch-all product like Warpalizer. Instead it's specificly targeted at the home consumer market.

NTHUSIM has a dedicated forums and wiki website that is maintained by a community of NTHUSIM users. Looking at the Warpalizer site...no such luck there.

Warpalizer requires the use of a hardware dongle, while NTHUSIM only requires a one-time network activation.

NTHUSIM is in direct communication with NVIDIA and AMD. AMD has collaborated with NTHUSIM on several occasions with event co-marketing. NTHUSIM directly assisted AMD with the 6800-series launch and CES 2011.

NTHUSIM is compatible with Matrox DH2G/TH2G, NVIDIA (3D) Surround and AMD EyeFinity.

NTHUSIM has community forum moderators (like me) that will talk with you at length and help you with custom designing your setup to best suit what you want to do.

NTHUSIM compatibility with DX7, 8, 9, 10, 10.1, 11 and OpenGL fullscreen applications. I've personally tested it with over 400 game titles. You'll not have that detailed a list of compatibility with Warpalizer.

You can watch fullscreen movies and video with your regular video player using a DirectX or OpenGL renderer and NTHUSIM. I personally prefer using Media Player Classic and DirectX renderer.

While both can do similar things, NTHUSIM is going out of it's way to differentiate itself from Warpalizer and directly cater only to home user. Please keep in mind that NTHUSIM was first on the scene to recognize the home user as a viable market and have the vision to implement it.

If I would of had my way edge blending would have been implemented in NTHUSIM a year ago. This is a very active debate internally. 100% of the concern is how opening edge blending to NTHUSIM might effect Immersaview's Sol7 customer-base. Sol7 is much better income for Immersaview than NTHUSIM is. Sol7 is the commercial line which has a much different license policy. The issue becomes, what happens if edge blending is implemented in both Sol7 and NTHUSIM? NTHUSIM users are only licensed for home/non-commercial use. What keeps an unethical commercial user from simply just buying NTHUSIM and paying 1/10th the cost to do what they need? The reason why there is no movement yet on edge blending is because there is no straight cut answer yet to that issue that has been worked out yet. The code for edge blending has always existed in Immersaview products. It's just commented out for NTHUSIM builds until a proper answer can be found for this issue.

I pose the question knowing full well most every NTHUSIM user wants edge blending -- me included. How does Immersaview keep the commercial user from using NTHUSIM and cutting out Sol7 use? We already know how to combat Warpalizer -- simply just add in edge blending. Problem is, the issue is the commercial side of things and not Warpalizer itself. Although Warpalizer sort of invalidates the whole argument, because they target Warpalizer at both hobbyist and commercial. Edge blending is something I definitely want, but the issue is not so easy as just adding it in.

 

(Posted by Tom Goldberg on 03-09-11)

Ron, you might want to look at Fly Elise NG. This is warping software and the newest version they are working on will also have soft edge blending. I sent them an email to get in on there beta testing of the new software as I now have the projectors hung and operating but need to find a solution for edge blending. Also this software is a lot cheaper than Warpalizer or Immersaview Sol7. It starts at 39 Euros.

 

http://fly.elise-ng.net/

 

I have the software trial version. Another real cool thing is Nikola will let you use and test it free for 30 days, you can't ask for more than that. I will give you more info when my screens are completely finished they need to be seamed at the edges and then painted. Then I can really test this software to make sure it does exactly what we need it to do.

 

The basic setup is three flat screens which are 8ft wide. The two outer screens are angled in at 60 degrees. Two of the screens are actually my walls in the basement. The third is a free standing wall I had to build. We hung drywall which is smooth and I have my friend who is a pro tape texture guy to tape and mud the seams and make this thing super flat. The projectors are 3 Benq MP780ST units. They throw an image 8ft wide by 5ft high at 50" in a 16:10 aspect ratio.

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 04-15-12)

Thanks guys on the warping software information!  I ended up getting three Mitsubishi EW230U-ST projectors! Native resolution 1280X800 16:10, Lumens 2,500, Contrast 2,000:1 and at a price of only $650 per projector! There are certainly better projectors out there but none of them could touch this price. These projectors will work fine for the next five to seven years and then we will see where technology and price has taken us.

 

Here are my three projectors hanging from the ceiling finally!  I was going to back them up to create a 10% vertical overlap between the three projectors without loosing any of the field of view, but as you can see, I can not get any tighter, therefor, I have to settle for the digital vertical line separating the three views. (At least for now)

Ron 406

 

I found a use for my "REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT" flags:

Ron 407

 

Here is an over all view of the project!

Ron 408

 

Lining up the screens with each other was not as bad as I thought it was going to be. Although I may move them once I get the warping software in hand depending on what it can and can't do.

 

And one last photo of the cockpit:

Ron 409

 

I also started hooking up the projectors to the computers via the TH2Go. After some trial and error, I think I have a big error! I think there is something wrong with the center channel of the TH2Go. The projector recognizes that it is receiving a signal from all three projectors but the center is blacked out.

 

(A few hours later....)

After a little research, it appears as if the TH2Go is set in two channel mode. Off to do some more research on the matter!

 

I beat my head against the curved screen wall for too long on such a simple thing that I over looked. So let me tell you guys a few simple things to do and to look for:

 

1. Make sure you use the short 2 foot DVI cord that comes with the Matrox TH2Go "Digital version". For some reason, if you use a longer cable between your video card and you TH2Go, you will loose signal and you may loose a display, or two. (My TH2Go was refurbished and did not come with directions or the install CD)

 

2. Make sure you select 16/10 or "Full" (which is 16/10 in the case of my projectors). I was stuck in 4/3 and could not figure out why I had huge gaps between P1 and P2 and then again between P2 and P3. (I thought it was a resolution issue.)

 

In both cases, simple mistakes and so easy to fix!

 

So now that I have my projectors pretty much where they need to be, I built a rail that runs along the ceiling to support the video cables and power lines:

Ron 410

 

This is the TH2Go mounted on the wall very close to the video card as you can imagine:

Ron 411

 

And the projector end of the mess:

Ron 412

 

Here is FSX for the first time running on all three projectors:

Ron 413

 

The next step in the process is purchasing warping software and pulling everything back into shape.  At this very moment, I am leaning towards Fly Elise NG.  You can read up on it here: http://fly.elise-ng.net/

 

I am very pleased with the visuals. Don't get me wrong, it's not a LCD screen which is superior, but I would rather have a bezel-less, seamless full scope visual system. I can see the pixels when seated in the sim if I really look for them but I have 20/15 vision. For you guys who are blind and could never pass a flight physical, you would be happy as a clam.

 

I am using 3840 X 1024 resolution. I have not even started to play with the contrast settings yet.

 

On a side note, I will tell you that I need to get my screen canvass ASAP. First, it is going to be one long piece of material that will cover the whole curved screen. This means that five seams will disappear. The second reason I need to get the matte finish canvass is to reduce the glare from the projector light down to nothing.

 

(Posted by Alaxus on 04-26-12)

I just purchased Fly Elise NG's Immersive Display Lite2 for 58.31 Euros, which comes to $79.06 US (No longer available) You can check out Fly Elise NG's latest products here: https://fly.elise-ng.net/index.php/products

 

It is the non commercial version of Fly Elise NG. Now I am just waiting for them to send me the keys. I am taking it slow and one step at a time. It is starting to get exciting! You can read a little more about Fly Elise NG in this thread HERE

 

I have been using Fly Elise for a while now and for money it is a great buy. Once you use 180 deg visuals you will never go back!  Can't wait for the 1080 projectors to come down in price.

 

By the way, I hope you have a good air conditioner in that room. Those three projectors will heat the room in no time at all. I have to keep my room temp around 20C otherwise my projectors start screaming their heads off trying to keep cool.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 04-26-12)

Thanks guys, this moment has been a long time coming for me. I thought I would have been here a year ago.

 

I do have an AC unit, actually it's part of the central AC unit that is part of the house but the sim room has it's own control to the zone which is everything upstairs. I have already seen how the projectors heat up quickly. I would imagine that they run cooler when we are flying in night time or dark conditions. I have a fan that I will plan on pointing in their direction to help keep them cool.

 

For me, it is not just the sim/shell, it is the whole space. I was telling Eric on the phone that it is starting to look like a high tech government project, rather than "The Projects"!

 

Over the past six months or so I have been doing all of my test flying using the one forward view stretched across the entire 225 curved screen. It worked for test flying but now I am ready to upgrade to either a three or five view system.

 

Before I get into my findings so far, let me tell you that with my computer system, I am getting over 30fps with all my sliders in the MAX positions.

 

Today, I created and saved a rough three and five view system to do some testing. In both cases, I still have a long way to go before I can say that I am proud of anything. One thing that I still need to work on is the zoom in or out for each view in an effort to line up the vertical edges of each window panel. 90% of the fine tuning is all done in the FLT files which I am new to but after a few minutes getting acquainted with them, they are not so bad.

 

The thing that is not too encouraging is the dump on the frame rates for the additional windows. The five view, (which is actually six views because you have to have the top down view sitting behind the other five views) has about a 4fps rate. This is with all the sliders still in the MAX position flying around Jacksonville in the day with fair weather and no add-on packages to speak of.

 

Then I tried out my 3 view (which is actually 4 views) and the frame rates improved to about 8fps. Same flying conditions.  I know that I can pull the sliders back to regain some, if not all of my 30fps which is desired, but I am looking at other ways to improve on fps in the meantime.  If anyone has an idea or two on how to increase performance, please let me know.

 

Eric German sent this grocery list via email of things to check and or do:

Well the framerate depends on a pile of things, but I've found the basics are below:

- First are you running REX?, If so make sure your cloud choice matches your manual edit in the fsx.cfg (ie 4080),TEXTURE_MAX_LOAD (FYI FSX overwrites these changes EVERY time you make a change in the sliders etc)

 

- Make sure wide view aspect=true. I had mine in the wrong order in the display section and FSX adds another entry to turn it back off

 

- Set the affinity mask properly for your PC setup

 

- Bufferpools- I now use pools=0. If you have a hefty GPU this will allow the processor to stream direct down the pipe wide open. My ATI has no problem here- your mileage may vary, but should be a champ compared to my ATI!

 

- Anti-Aliasing- Let your GPU handle this and turn off in FSX

 

-Filtering- Let FSX handle this. I use Anisotropic and works great

 

- Do not use DX10

 

- Turn down traffic to about 1/3rd MAX on the slider- any higher is ridiculous and unrealistic

 

-Turn down ships and ferries about half- you can play with this

 

-Run water textures down one notch- not at the highest- they are the biggest pig on frames even if you are nowhere near water- TRUST ME.

 

- Get REX and solve above item by running as above but using one of the REX water textures such as the one called "Use This" (anything but "Sparkling"- ) Your water will be crazy good and not chew frames at all.

 

- Lock your framerate at 30- otherwise the GPU will run away and back down cycling like crazy.

 

- Try windowed VS fullscreen- before the above edits mine slowed right down in FS- now I'm back to full strength after finding my cloud texture got mismatched

 

I have UTX running pretty much wide open (all goodies selected) with no issues- again, lower the traffic- Its a beast on frames and looks silly when you have bumper to bumper traffic on county roads.

 

(Posted by Manfred on 12-25-12)

Wow, what an interesting thread! So much stuff to try and absorb. Makes my head hurt.  One thing I didn't see is this. Given that the LCD or DLP are flat and projection screens are flat or very close to it, how does a projector keep all of the curved screen in focus? I can't see how any software can fix that.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 12-25-12)

Manfred, There are several companies out there now that have developed warping software. I am using http://fly.elise-ng.net/

 

I was like you, how can the projectors keep everything in focus on a curved screen? If you have a projector, put it in focus on your flat screen. Then move it about 6 inches forward from your focus point and then 6 inches back past the focus point. You will notice that the image stays in focus for the most part.

 

With my 12 diameter curved screen, each projector is projecting an image of about 6' tall X 8' wide. The focus point for each projector is split between the closest point of the screen and the furthest point of the screen. In other words, no part of the screen is any further than about 5 inches from the optimum focus point.

 

On the other hand, the "WARPING" of the image is the real issue and the reason why you need Fly Elise NG or Enthusium warping software.

 

As far as the issue with frame rates go, Scott Wegner sent me an email that points out that what we are attempting to do with one server computer and a TH2Go unit might not be possible while attempting to keep high quality and high performance. In other words, something has to give!

 

Ivar did extensive testing on this matter and found that five views, (front, front left, front right, left and right) is too much for one computer to handle. The maximum is a three view setup, (front, left front and right front).

 

So with this conformation that attempting to run five views off of one computer will severely decrease frame rates, I will only push forward with a three view set up.

 

The nice thing about a three view set up is that I can mask the seams of the projectors with the seams of the window views. So when all is said and done, I will only have two seams to deal with and attempt to make invisible.

 

Scott says he has abandoned the single computer TH2Go path and now uses three computers, one for each projector. This will be my last resort but at last we know that there is a solution available to us so that we can have high quality and performance at the same time.

 

More info and testing to follow!

I did several test flights with different settings this morning and I feel better about it's prospects. I feel confident that I can achieve a level of quality and performance that I will be happy with using just the one computer and TH2go. I have only grazed the surface of the tweaks I can and need to do.

 

A few days ago I was at about 5fps with 5 views. That had me worried.

 

My last test flight this morning had frame rates between 18 and 25 using 3 views. The biggest frame rate killer I have snipped so far has been the high water effects. I need to download REX!!!!!

 

I just purchased some screen material from Carl's Place http://www.carlofet.com/

 

The quick answer is to use a string tacked down to a point. Measure out 3 meters and draw a line forming a circle on MDF or plywood. Then draw another line about 3 inches further out. This will give you your shape for your templates. Cut out and fine tune the templates and replicate as many times as you need to to make all of the frame parts.

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 07-26-13)

Sorry for such a long delay on updating this thread. I have had the visual system up and running for about four months now.

 

Here are a few photos of the visual system to date. I have 220 degrees of view, however, I am only using three views with three projectors which equal about 160 degrees of view. It is not perfect and I am still working on a better solution with the help of Greg Branch but in the meantime, is is pretty cool to see it pushed this far!

Ron 414

 

I am also proud to say that the frame rates are pretty impressive considering I am essentially using four views if you count the fourth background view. (This of course is depending on where you are flying.) Typically if flying in moderate scenery, like around Jacksonville International Airport, (JIA), I will get 30 to 40 FPS. Flying in or around Tampa International with the FlyTampa scenery, it drops down to about 14 fps. But even with that said, 14 fps does not look bad at all. It is very flyable.

Ron 415

 

This is the same view as the photos above but at night time:

Ron 416

 

This is from the FO's point of view coming in on final in Clearwater Florida:

Ron 417

 

Same point in space and time but looking out the right front window from the CPT's seat:

Ron 418

 

And here is a photo of what it looks like peeping out the extreme right window in the same point and time from the CPT's seat:

Ron 419

 

Here I am sitting on the runway from the CPT's point of view:

Ron 420

 

And here is the same view from the FO's point of view:

Ron 421

 

This is extreme left view:

Ron 422

 

And this is extreme right view:

Ron 423

 

After about three minutes of flying the sim, you forget all about that fact that the extreme ends are stretched to fill in the full screen. Like is said previously, this is still a work in progress but in the meantime, it is such a joy to fly!

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 05-15-14)

Today I got side tracked and took care of something that I have known was an issue but just did not have the time or motivation to do anything about it until today. I moved two of my projectors to their preferred sweet spots. Long story short I moved the front project (P1) to the right 1.5 inches and the one to the left, (P1) out and forward about .75 inches.

 

Greg Branch would know more than anyone about the issue I was having with all the help he has given me on the subject. The seam between P1 and P2 would not align for nothing no matter what we tried to do in the warping software. The issue is if the front projector (P2) is not perfectly aligned and centered on the curved screen, it will cause the left vertical edge to be longer or shorter than the right vertical edge. And then it goes down hill from there.

 

I was thinking that I could get the projectors hung and then use the warping software to tweak it into shape. I learned it does not work that way. The warping software will help but if your looking for perfection and to have a chance to forget your in a flight simulator, you have to take the extra time to make sure you have your projectors mounted in their sweet spots. When it comes to finding the right place for them, there is no wiggle room!

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 07-27-15)

In Feb 2015, while fooling around with Airport Design Editor, I broke FSX to the point that it had to be reinstalled. It was the perfect opportunity to do a complete reformat AND switch over to Prepar3D 2.5.

 

For the most part, the process is nearly complete with a few more issues to overcome. One of the biggest issues that I am still dealing with is the outside visual system. In my FSX setup with the help of Greg Branch, we had it as perfect as we could hope for.

 

Reminder of my hardware setup: I am using three projectors and a TH2Go unit looking for approximately 220 degrees of field of view (FOV). If your not familiar with the way the TH2Go unit works, it basically acts as if it is one ultra wide monitor. One VGA to the computer and three to each of the projectors. I do realize that they now have high end video cards that accept three video outputs to accomplish the same thing but at this point, I will stick with what I have. (In anycase, hardware is not the problem)

 

What I had to do with FSX: In the past with FSX, someone in my position would need to have four view windows opened to create a 220 degree outside view. Why four you ask? Well you have your center view on the center projector, left view on the left projector, the right view on the right projector and last but not least, the top down view which spans across all three projectors behind the other three views. This is necessary due to docked or undocked windows in FSX, (I can't remember which way it was)

 

Another quick thought, some folks use a view straight up which works just as well. The trick is to zoom way out if your top down so that the Earth looks like a sphere or zoom way in so that there is nothing but blue sky. The reason for this is so that this four view does not take up more than absolutely needed computing resources. As you can imagine, the computer has enough to think about with the other three views.

 

The issue now with P3D 2.5: Some say the visuals are suppose to be easier to work with within P3D. So far, going about it with the mentality that even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then is not working so well!  But then again, I have not dedicated the proper amount of time to the problem either.

 

I have been told that it is possible to take one cockpit view, (minus the instrumentation), stretch it over the span of the three projector screens, (which is really just the single ultra wide TH2Go monitor and then adjust the vertical FOV to 220 degrees. If this is possible it would eliminate three of the four views we previously needed with FSX which in turns reduces computing power and increases FPS.

 

Stretching a single view over the three monitors is a piece of cake. The problem that I am running into is that the maximum amount of vertical FOV allowed within P3D is 179 degrees per view. And even then I am running into issues where it does not seem like it is anywhere near 179, more like 120 degrees of vertical view. If this is true I would need to resort back to three if not four views!!!!

 

Is there anyone else out there in this group working with multiple views AND P3D v2.5 that might be able to shed some light on the issue or know of a helpful forum with answers to these question?

 

(Posted by Mark Speechley on 07-27-15)

Talk about the Karma bus ! Just about the questions I was to pose to the forum however it is a few weeks early for me.

 

Cockpit builders forum are discussing the projector positions in the last few days so guaranteed they'll have an answer. The Prepar3D forum is usually helpful so between those two we should have our answers.

 

Whilst we are at it the cockpit builders raised the topic of offset projector mounting due to a 'crabbing' effect whether you are the Captain or FO relative to the center projector's position. They were giving different answers so was none the wiser.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 07-28-15)

Thanks Mark, I knew you were close to being in the same boat so your right, within a few weeks we will have our answers. I will have a few days to dedicate to the problem over the weekend.

 

I have never noticed the "crab effect" to the point that it was a huge problem for me. I have been flying with three projectors for the past three years. Is it something seen more with a single forward view screen or LCD?

 

Mark, you might solve your "crab effect" by simply moving to your three screen projection system. Eric, you have flown my sim several times. Do you notice it and if so is it a show stopper?

 

(Posted by Eric Tomlin on 07-28-15)

The crab effect, is something that unless I'm not aware, is not really possible to get rid of fully (at least with FSX).

 

What I found is that the view for the Left Seat was most important to be correct. That's how MS designed the POV, and that's why when we try to fly from the Right Seat it's off-kilter. You can adjust it to try to be somewhere in the middle for the two, but instead of one perfect view and one not so perfect view (as a pilot), you end up with two not so good views. Which is the better of the two choices? The other thing I found was that as Co-Pilot (or more accurately, working in the Right Seat) you really do not need to have the best view as the non-flying pilot. Your workload is high, and you're rarely looking out the window. At least that's what we found when talking to ATC, working approach charts, Checking weather, calculating VSpeeds, briefing for approaches, etc. Hopefully there is a way to overcome this with P3D.

 

Ron, I've never flown your sim from the right seat as far as I can remember, at least not tried to fly it seriously from there. As such, I do think it's pretty apparent. If I make it down the 15th, I'll check.

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 09-17-15)

Over the past two weeks I have been working on my visual system and learning a lot along the way. Like everything with this hobby there is a learning curve. But the good news is we will soon have an expert when it comes to curved screens and projectors!  I know Mark Speechley is not too far behind me and Shane is looking to add two LCD screens to his rig. I have answers for you guys and anyone else looking to add more than just one projector or LCD screen!

 

(Assuming that you have your projectors hung, your screen mounted and your warping software working and everything lined up correctly, these tips below will help you fine tune your visual system. However, I have some tips in this area as well.)

 

The first thing that I have learned on my own is that the "Window Maker Tool" that you may have read about or even used is not a magical program that makes your visual system perfect with a couple clicks of the mouse. The way the Window Maker Tool works is that you plug in how many projectors or views you are going to use and the overall field of view. So in my case 3, for three projectors and 210 for 210 degrees of view. (I thought 210 but later that changed.)

 

The Window Maker Tool calculates making four windows and four camera views, one camera view for each window. The fourth camera view is the top down view or background view that the other three views sit on top of. In my case, the Window Maker Tool figures out the rotation angle which would be 70 degrees for the left and right cameras. That's it! I guess what I am trying to say is that if you know just a little about what your doing you can create these views, windows and cameras yourself in FSX or P3D.

 

In any case, if you have a three projector screen system and your total FOV is around 180 to 220 degrees, the thing that you will need to do is find your rotation angle for the left and right cameras. I started with -70 for the left camera and 70 for the right. The center camera is 0 degrees because it is facing straight forward but it will include 70 degrees of field of view. So 3 X 70 = 210 degrees of view. Sounds good, but does it look good?

 

One way to check to see if it looks good is to fire up the sim and taxi the Learjet to the middle of the runway and turn it at a 90 degree angle to the runway. What you should see when you look left is the runway extending out to the threshold. When you look to the right you should see the other end of the runway. What I ended up seeing using a rotation angle of -70 and 70 made the runway look like a shallow chevron. In other words it looked like I was sitting on a bend in the runway.

 

After playing with the rotation angles I was able to fine tune the results down to -67 and 67. (You can change the rotation angle in the drop down tabs within P3D and FSX or you can do it in the .FLT files of your saved flights.) This means that my total field of view is 201 degrees. More importantly it looks correct and perfect when viewed from the optimum eye point in the sim. Which by the way if your not aware, there is an optimum eye point in the Lear45 and every aircraft for that matter:

Ron 424

 

Here is a photo of the triball seat adjustment tool mounted to the center post. This tool helps you adjust your seat so that your head (your eyes) are in the visual "sweet spot" so you can see everything you need to see.

 

So with my eyes in the "sweet spot", when I look left and then right, I should see what I would expect to see, the two ends of the runway!

 

You will find that when you change the rotation angle that the zoom gets out of wack. No problem. Click on the window you want to zoom in or out and use your plus or minus buttons on the keyboard. To fine tune your zoom, SHIFT + or -. If your going to be using three LCD screens with bezels of any size, you can get away with using the same exact zoom figure for all three windows. As an example, .60. However, in my case, I have found that I have to use a slightly different zoom figure for each of the three projector windows. .601245, .601567 and .602405. This may change for me because I am going over the warping software with a fine tooth comb and insuring that every square inch is perfectly aligned and square.

 

There are several different factors that could lead to needing slightly different zoom figures. It could be that the projectors are not mounted properly on the ceiling. It could be that my screen system is a little closer to the projectors on one side compared to the other. Who knows. I'm putting all this out there so that you guys just getting started on your visuals can keep these things in mind.

 

One last thought about the forth window behind the three main windows. I have been told that we need this forth window so that the other three windows can sit on top of it undocked I think they say? So what I was doing is using the top down view and zooming WAY out until the Earth looked like a ball in space. The idea was to create this needed window but make it in such a way that it does not take up a lot of computing power which in turn helps keep your FPS as high as possible.

 

With that said, I have discovered that I can create the cockpit view, which is our normal front view, create a left rotation -67 degree view and a right rotation 67 degree view and place these two views on top of the main front view. Then when I properly zoom each of the three windows, it looks perfect. In other words, I am only using three windows. The forth window is not needed. I did a couple test on frame rates and there was no difference using this solution or the solution using the forth window. I may have to do some more testing to insure that this is the way to go but so far, it is very promising.

 

I'll get some photos up in the next few days for you guys along with some more tips and findings.

 

(Posted by Mark Speechley on 09-18-15)

There is an old Chinese proverb that says " When the student is ready, the teacher shall appear." Wow ! Was that timely or what with your dissertation Ron.

 

I have the painted projector screen in position, floor repainted, wall pictures moved, desks replete with sim computers re positioned, beer in the fridge and getting some help putting the projectors up on Sunday. Methinks that the projectors are going to be the easy bit and the software is going to be the hard stuff.

 

So lets see if I have this right after reading your post:

1/ Install projectors

2/ Download and install Warping software. ( In my case will be Immersive Display Pro and Immersive Calibration Pro )

 

From here we deviate. I assume that the Immersive Pro programs will do the job of Window Maker Tool in calculating the angles. In your example it initially suggested angles of -70 and +70 degrees for the L and R projector angles but at what stage do you alter the angle to incorporate the 10 - 15 deg overlap ? Or is that just simply 70 less 5-7.5 deg for the overlap ?

 

Next question is assuming one has Nvidia cards and utilizing Nvidia Surround.

 

In P3D you initially open up the center window then drag the left window border to the L projector and again same but R to R projector. This makes P3D fill the whole 3 projectors. Easy to do but in my LCD screens that gives you Left center, center and Right center. No Left and Right. Hence this is the bit that I need clarification. You are saying not to use this P3D method ?

 

What you are suggesting therefore is to create 3 windows, L view, Center & R view with the approximate +/- 67 deg view instead. I've not noticed the menu option for choosing the angle before, so where do we exactly find it ?

 

I'm sure once everything is plugged in it'll work like a charm.

 

Here is an interesting chart on data cable length from Projector/monitor to computer in case you need to move everything once you have a shell and projector screen.

http://www.cablechick.com.au/blog/cable-length-guide/#chart

 

More fun times ahead and thank you for the trailblazing Ron!

 

I have only ever done Nvidia Surround for years and didn't go down the Matrox Triple Head route. What I was trying to say was there are different 'levels' and we need to achieve each one before we move on. By that I mean when you had multiple LED screens plugged in at a certain resolution and 'blended' via Nvidia Surround. Then you unplug them and then replace with projectors, that setup will be the first layer just to get Windows happy. Then for the second level, you purchase Blending software such as Fly-Elise Immersive Display Pro etc and that will fine tune the picture for the number of projectors, screen shape and FOV degrees.

 

Once that is done, as enunciated by Ron, you can only then fire up P3D for the third level and try his method, which hopefully should be spot on for the three screens and approx 210 deg FOV.  Hope I got the gist of it all. Once I dive in it'll make sense.

 

My projectors are BenQ 1080+ which are short throw HD projectors. At least if no-one else in the forum is running these bad boys then I should be able to do a little bit of trail blazing to complement Ron's knowledge. base. Getting excited!

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 09-19-15)

First off, I am still using TH2Go. It works great and until it stops working I will continue to use it. In my Server-PC, I am using a Nvidia 580 card which was a really great card three years ago. Now it's just a good card.

 

Mark, you have the main idea. To recap, don't take the placement of the projectors lightly. Try very hard to get the placement and alignment as good as possible. It will save you some trouble down the road.

 

After you get your projectors and screen set up, make Windows happy. No one is happy until windows is happy. You more than likely are using a smaller LCD screen on your desktop to do other things and when you set up your monitors, make the one on your desktop your primary screen, #1. Your projectors will be your secondary screen, #2. In my case, the three projectors all plug into the TH2Go and the computer thinks it is just one big monitor, something like 5600 X 780. Hopefully you can get your system set up in a similar fashion. In other words, even though I have one LCD screen and three projectors plugged into the Server-PC, the Server-PC only sees two monitors.

 

After you make windows happy then you can start to use your warping software. It's pretty clear what you need to do there, fix it! I will say this, you can fix it so that it looks good to the naked eye but at some point you will want to check and make sure that everything is properly spaced. In my case, I took a pair of yellow sticky notes and made sure that my little squares were spaced out perfectly within one pixel one way or the other. Otherwise you will get what looks like an accordion effect or warping. It will give you a headache. Your Pro version may have features that will help fix some if not all of your warping issues. Let me know how it works for you.

 

As I said a few post ago, the Window Maker Tool is really not needed. As a matter of fact, because you would have to convert the Window Maker Tool results from .txt to .fxml, it is not going to give you any advantage. (The author of Window Maker Tool has not made a version for P3D that kicks out results in .fxml format yet.) In other words, you will still need to create three windows, your front main cockpit window, your left window and your right window. You can manually move your left and right windows to where they need to be placed on top of your main cockpit view.

 

There is a tab at the top of your P3D that enables you to change the rotation angle within that window. I am not in front of the computer that has P3D on it so I can't say for sure where it is. But what I have been doing is changing it in my saved test flight .FLT file. Don't worry, you will be in and out of several of your .FLT files and you will become one with them. By the way, I don't know how any piece of software can tell you what your optimum rotation angle should be. Your just going to have to take a best guess, plug in the numbers and try it. If your talking about over laping to blend in your seams, my best guess starting point for you would be -60 and 60 (180 FOV) The reason I say that it is hard to know is because I had the perfect numbers of -67 and 67........until I adjusted the warping a little more and now my numbers are -68 and 68. I am not sure how a software program can know what looks good to a human eye.

 

I opted to just butt up the screens so that I could get as much outside visuals as I could, ATM it is 204 degrees. If you do want to overlap your projectors and blend them so that your projectors are seamless, you would do all that when you are working on your warping within Immersive Display Pro. Then when you are working with P3D and the views, the only difference would be the rotation angle. So instead of

 

-68 and 68 your numbers might be -60 and 60 which is a 180 degree field of view.

 

Yesterday I was about ready to start over because for some reason the seam between projectors 1 and 2 just would not line up. It would appear to be somewhat lined up on the ground but once the sim was airborne, things would get mismatched. What was more confusing is that the seam between 2 and 3 was perfect. Thank goodness I had to go to work to let the problem settle in.

 

This morning I reverted back to one of my older saved flights with a rotation value of -67 and 67. This seemed to fix the issue. The other major factor that was saved in this older flight was the zoom figures. So this saved flight on top of the new changes I have made in Fly Elise NG have got me back on track to a visual projection system that will be as good as possible with the hardware and software that I am using.

 

A few other quick points and things that I did and plan to do:

1. I added a half inch foam gap filler to the top of the screen system that blocks the light between the ceiling and the top of the screen. (I have a window behind my screen system and outside light leaks past the top of the screen system. Not any more!

 

2. A 3/4's turn of a screw to the left projector ceiling mount was all it took to get the three projectors lined up on the same horizontal plain. In other words, this action lifted the projected image up a little less than a quarter inch. And that action caused me to have to drop every pixel on projector 1 down three pixel places.

 

3. Now that I can see the projector light at the end of this tunnel I plan to finish the whole screen system off with a little trim work. I'll let the future photos help tell that story.

 

My last thought on this subject for you guys going this route is that there are so many variables, both hardware and software. It is like a Rubix Cube puzzle. An action in one area will have an affect somewhere else. You have to keep all six sides of the puzzle in mind in order to solve it. (No cheating by pulling stickers off or I would have done that a long time ago!) By the way, save your warping software .cfg file settings as you go along. If something were to happen to your computer, it will be nice to have that .cfg file backed up on a thumb drive.

 

(Posted by Randy Buchanan on 09-24-15)

Hey Ron and gang, is there software one can run for monitors change the point of view. I think I am right in saying most of our builders are using some number of monitors. I have fooled around with 2 and 3 and 4 and have not come up with a real good solution. It just occurred to me that Fly Elise NG is just driving monitors/projectors. Can you move your view to right in front of you in the left seat?

 

By the way what do you think you are getting in terms of resolution? Are your projectors rated at some resolution and a certain distance?

 

The other question is is anyone thinking about building a Collimated system. It may not be as difficult as it seems.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 09-24-15)

Hey Randy, the Fly Elise NG software handles the warping part of the problem. Whats funny is that I have just spent about a week making sure everything is perfectly straight but now it looks like I am going to have to reintroduce warp back into the problem in an effort to correct the "accordion effect".

 

The projectors I am using are rated as good, not great. I paid $650 each for them four years ago. My first projector was a 600X800. These are 720X1280 I think. They are no where near as clear as monitors.

 

Here is an example that I just took today:

Ron 425

 

I love the idea of having a wrap around visual system but until technology catches up and gets cheaper, it is what it is.

 

Based on my research on the collimated visual system, it looks cool, the science behind it is cool but I am not sure if a home built system can beat what I currently have. I would personally love to see someone build one and share their experience with it!

 

(Posted by Will Sasse on 09-24-15)

A collimated display system has been on my wish list for a long time... Just got to work out how to build it! The main advantages to the collimated visual system is it uses parabolic reflections to give a better stereoscopic and distance view. Allegedly removes the offset view from either seat.

 

Here is a brief "how it's made" video on commercial sim.  Gives a good view of the collimated display construction...

 

https://youtu.be/SIQSIuLojCU

 

A few home built collimated system websites and a video:

http://www.mikesflightdeck.com/scenery_display/scenery.html

 




 

(Posted by Randy Buchanan on 09-26-15)

Hey Ron, looking out your window looks just great. You say, "It is what it is." I think what you mean is it is not the best it can be given a reasonable amount of money. That said all of the professional high priced simulators use a Collimated Cross-Cockpit Display it says here. A way of explaining what it is might be to compare your 220 degree with a collimated display. Perfectly collimated light is sometimes said to be focused at infinity. This is part of a longer definition but what it means to us is when you look out the window on your side of the cockpit it looks close to what I see looking out the window on my side of the cockpit. This is very close to what we would see if we were riding down the road in your Corvette. It looks real. If you do a search on Google with the words Collimated Cross-Cockpit Display you can find all kinds of information on how it is done.

 

I think I can build one of these screens that will work with your cockpit design. This is a site which shows what this display can look. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll/ This one uses a flexible milar mirror and a vacuum suction to make the proper shape. I think I can make a screen with the proper shape and then cover it with the mirror material. No heavy wood frame, no vacuum. I may be missing something here but I don't think so. Here is the pro version: http://www.cae.com/civil-aviation/simulation-products/cae-visual-solutions/display-systems/

 

(Posted by Mark Speechley on 10-05-15)

I haven't gone away, just given myself an enforced break from the shed as I am about to put my foot through the three projectors!

 

As Ron has said earlier, just make sure the projectors are positioned correctly first then launch into the software.

 

Well so far have installed the three BenQ 1080's twice and am contemplating a third time. The Immersive Pro Calibration works well, once you get the gist of it, however you cannot get silk purse out of a sow's ear. If the projector position math does not add up you are asking for a world of time wasting trying to line up the seams. Once you have the grid lines, lined up, the next window gives you a test pattern and that didn't line up!  Argh!!!

 

Some learning lessons so far.

1/ Check the throw distance and picture size chart for the projector that you require, BEFORE you buy it. You can have a lovely big screen, but to fill it up the further back the projectors need to be. At a throw distance of 8' the vertical height of the picture will be 6' and width 10' 8". You also need to factor the offset between the top of the screen and the projector as the beam is projected downwards.

 

2/ Purchase a projector mount that gives you horizontal and vertical ranges and length. If one of your projectors is too high or low and you only have horizontal rotation as an option, how are you going to fix it ?

 

3/ Check if your preferred projector has the lens in the middle or on the side. It matters when you need to configure the three projectors next to each other, as the measurements are taken from the lens to the screen.

 

4/ Need beer, coffee and music.

 

Will report back when move onto the Immersive display Pro.  Just love this hobby just for the sake of having to learn so many more skills!

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 10-05-15)

Two quick thoughts. I should have told you that you will end up mounting the projectors three times. I did !

 

The other thought is: Your right about the center lens placement on the projector. If everything else is the same and you have the choice between a projector with the lens in the middle of the projector and one where the lens is offset to one side or the other, go with the one with the lens centered. Problem is most projectors have the lens offset to the side which means the alignment is going to be very tricky. I'll take a photo of what I am talking about later.

 

In the meantime, I was talking to Randy today and he was asking some good questions about "The crabbing effect". I think it becomes more prominent the more you zoom into the scenery. In my case, my zoom is set to .60 and some change, not because I like that number but because that is what it has to be with my setup.

 

Here are a few photos of what the crabbing effect looks like from my full size Lear45 cockpit using the three projector setup that I have:

Ron 426

 

This photo is from the pilot's side seat. Notice that the pilot's eye point appears to be lined up on the center line?

 

And here is a zoomed in look still from the pilot's side of the cockpit:

Ron 427

 

This is the copilot's eye point looking at the same scenery. The aircraft has not been moved:

Ron 428

 

And a zoomed in look at the runway from the copilot's point of view:

Ron 429

The crabbing effect in my sim is so minimal that it is virtually a none issue. However, I do prefer to fly from the driver's seat.

 

While I was at it, I thought I would show you a few more interesting shots.  These next two photos show that I have successfully dialed in the correct rotational angle for the left and right views. As I was saying earlier in this thread, -67 for the left and 67 for the right are the two magic numbers. This gives me a total of 201 degrees of field of view.

 

From the pilot's seat point of view looking left as the aircraft sits at a 90 degree angle to the runway:

Ron 430

 

And looking right from the pilot's seat:

Ron 431

 

Notice that it appears as if the pilot's eye point is sitting dead on the center line and the center line is running 180 degrees from left to right? It is kind of hard to prove this with photos but trust me, it looks and feels right. What I mean by "feels right", is that the physical turning of my head looking left and right feels right, like looking both ways at an intersection.

 

Last but not least in the set is the seams where projectors #1 and #2 meet and #2 and #3 meet.  This is the left seam between #1 and #2:

Ron 432

 

And this is the seam between #2 and #3:

Ron 433

 

They are not bad and I still have room for improvement. I could take a few inches and blend them but the issue is that there will still be evidence of a couple projector seams. What I found is that the projector light overlaps and makes a vertical strip of brighter light. So as of this moment I am opting to go with increased field of view with a little seam in two places.

 

Tomorrow I will show you what I am doing to address the "fish eye effect" that I am experiencing. I am literally correcting the visuals pixel by pixel, re warping the visuals to what looks correct. It's as if I am putting corrective lenses on the projectors!

 

I do all my test flying in St Augustine and as of this date, I do not have any add on scenery for the airport. That is why it looks kinda bland. Randy, you will also notice that it looks a little fuzzy. That is normal for the projectors. It is a trade off with the LCD screens which are crisp and clear. The projectors make it look a little hazy but the trade is complete immersion into the simulation.

 

I am clearly on the other side of the learning curve in the school of hard knocks. It is just a matter of fine tuning and building the trim panels to make it all look finished and professional.

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 10-13-15)

As promised, here are a few other photos and neat things that you might not have known about when it comes to projection systems.

 

First off, Mark brought up the tricky placement of the projectors above. I was lucky enough to find a suitable way to mount mine directly to the ceiling:

Ron 434

 

Notice that the lens on all three are equal distances from each other or as close as possible. As it is, the left projector could be a little closer to the center projector but it is physically impossible with these. That is why I say if possible look into getting a set of projectors with a center lens configuration if everything else checks out on them:

Ron 435

 

I have "REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT" flags on the lens covers for the projectors. I thought it was a neat place for something like that!

 

Here are a few photos of the warping software. You would think that warping the visuals so that everything was in a perfect cylindrical shape would be the answer. But not so with FSX or P3D. It turns out that I have to warp the top 1/3 up and the bottom 1/3 down kinda like a fish eye effect. It looks jacked up in the warping software but when the flight simulator visuals are running everything is where it should be.

 

Here are a few more photos of the right side of the screen that shows this warping:

Ron 436

 

The top middle gets warped up:

Ron 437

 

And the bottom middle gets warped down:

Ron 438

 

One of the side effects to doing this was that the menu bar at the top also gets warped up and is hard to see, actually impossible to see:

Ron 439

 

Ron 440

 

But that's okay.  I am able to click on the 'Flights" tab which activates the menu bar which gives me access to the other hidden tabs by using the arrow keys. I should have taken a photo of this but when one of the tabs is selected, the drop down shows up with no warping. In other words, only the main window of P3D is actually warped but the drop downs from the menu bar are not effected which means I can see everything.

 

One last thing that I thought I would show you. When I first started thinking about the visual system one of my biggest concerns was the projector light and image hitting the shell, especially the nose of the shell. Well, it turns out that the warping software handles that like a champ!

Ron 441

 

Here you can see that I first had to warp the image down to correct the warp of the P3D image and then I had to pull the image back up where it would hit the nose of the shell. The area right in the center bottom has about two feet of imaged stacked on top of itself but you can't see it.

 

This is what it looks like in P3D:

Ron 442

 

Of course you can't see this area of the visuals from the pilot's points of view no matter how hard you try, it's hidden by the shell itself. So all in all, it works out very well!

 

Eric found this thread over on the Avsim website. Basically it is a software program that will install 2 cameras to your Cameras.CFG file and a PostProcess Shader that corrects the "fish eye" stretching effect. I have not had time to read all the way through the thread but I wanted to at least put a link to it in this thread so that it does not get lost and other folks can read up on it and or try it.  Thanks Eric!

 

http://www.avsim.com/topic/452305-prepp3d-views-peripheral-distortion-correction/

 

(Posted by Mark Speechley on 10-14-15)

I have just deleted weeks out of my life with Immersive Calibration Pro trying to get the darn three projectors to sync and last night achieved it. As Ron said it is like a Rubic's cube...believe it. What should be easy, in my case was ridiculous. The number of variables eg projector position,zoom, screen dimensions, screen imperfections, calibration software options, etc makes for quantum mechanics as your first method of choice!

 

Well I thought I had the perfect files for inserting to P3D last night.Was I in for a bigger shock.

 

Part 2:

Well just came in from a quick 4 hours in the hangar. Must admit every time I dive in I learn a bit more. First lesson yesterday was that Immersive Calibration makes an fxml file for P3d. You need to open it up and transfer the Window and camera files to an fxml file in your saved flight plan folder.The default.fxml would be the choice as it should load the settings every time ( I assume). Now kick in the bum time. You can't open the files up with notepad and cut and paste. Doh ! You need an xml editor. Who the billy-o has one of those laying around ? So next download a freebie ( took 2 goes to get one that was 'xml for dummies' ). Now you're cooking as it is just open up the 2 files and then cut and paste. In my case I had 4 window and camera files in the Immersive Calibration .fxml file. The manual is very thin on detail and assumes all is easy.

 

It says delete all the window and camera files from your P3D .fxml file and then replace with your calibrations file. Save the modified .fxml and P3d still recognizes it.

 

Now the fun begins..... in my case. In windows all three projectors work. Once P3D is started the three views are crammed into one projector view. You undock each view and drag to it's corresponding screen. Left and middle views are windowed but bezel still between. You also need to get the zoom realistic. I think mine was at least 1.0. Now I have hit a wall. Any window dragged into the Right projector goes black. The projector works as it has the unregistered watermark visible. Also I ran a widescreen video from within windows and the three projectors work fine. This problem is unique to P3D. I am wondering that if there is a limit to the Field of View size that P3D is blacking out the right screen?

 

So I am close but now I need help. So I assume Ron you are the lead so far so some questions:

1/ I have 4 window and camera files in the fxml file. Does yours have the same?

2/ Do you replace all the window and camera files ? Why would I have 4 windows/camera views and only three projectors ?

3/ I just need some more guidance on the P3D menu where you change the rotational angle and any other parameters that might need changing....or not touching!

4/ Do we need to dive into camera.cfg for any reason as well ?

 

That should be enough for me to digest if you have time to reply.

 

Also another observation is that when you have Immersive calibration Pro looking good and the picture looks great, as Ron has said once installed into P3D it doesn't look so good. Monitors or TV's are a squillion times easier than projectors!

 

Part 3:

Well ended up buying the upgrade to Immersive Display Pro which is Calibration Pro. Only 180 euro !!! Jeepers now this is getting expensive as you have to buy Display Pro first.

 

Anyway Cal. Pro will do two things Display will not.

1/ Output Multiple Virtual camera Warp and blending ( Multi Frustrums) as against only single desktop Frustrum.

 

Quote from guide:

For each remote display the _single.procalib file contains the geometrical and blending information to project computer desktops, movies, animations or other 2D content.

 

For each remote display the _multi.procalib file contains the geometrical and blending information to project the images from the virtual cameras from the 3D games or simulation engines. This file will only be created when multiple virtual cameras are available.

 

2/ Output P3d fxml files

 

From guide

In Prepar3D version 2.x, the format of the flight file has been changed in .fxml file. This is an xml file that contains the same information as the previous .flt file format. For a convenience Immersive Calibration PRO generates .fxml file that contains a description of the Prepar3D v2.x outside views and the

 

corresponding view camera settings. This file has to be copied in the Prepar3D v2 saved .fxml file.

 

NOTE: When using Multiple Virtual Cameras the _multi.procalib has to be loaded as external calibration in Immersive Display PRO

 

You would think that once you have these files completed and loaded into an fxml file then P3d will fire up with three projector screens and then voila. Not yet....

 

My setup is with three projectors and an LCD accessory screen under Nvidia 2D Surround. I am getting closer all the time and I know it works because there are people on Youtube who proudly show their videos. However no-one on the internet goes into any detail how they've achieved it or when things do not got to plan. So, it is so much trial and error and going over old ground that it really is ridiculous. Something that should be simple has been made hard.

 

I will get this done and between Ron and I we should be able to put a simple step by step approach for anyone following.  To be continued …

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 11-30-15)

Thank you for the new info Mark.  Greg Branch has been telling me that I need to get the Pro version. Like you, I wish this was not so difficult!!

 

I have got my visual system about as good as I am going to get it without buying the Pro version but the only way it is going to be perfect is to change some fundamentals in my visual system.

 

1. I need to go with a little bit larger diameter. But until we find another house, that's not going to happen.

 

2. My projectors should be updated. But that won't happen until at least one of them fails.

 

3. I need to move to a more powerful warping and blinding software. I could do this but without addressing the physical fundamentals, I'm not sure the expense and frustration will be worth it.

 

There is still room for improvement with my current setup without spending a dime and as of this moment, I will keep tweaking it until I hit a wall.

 

Mark, what is the diameter of your screen system?

 

After looking at your photo and your short video, you still have a ways to go. It is very disturbing to me that even with the more expensive software that you are still having the same problems as I have with the cheaper obsolete Fly Elise NG software that is no longer available. Greg and I did try the 30 day trial of the software that you are using and the option that is suppose to automatically make everything perfect, however, we ended up with the same results as what you have. The horizon lines where still warped down. There is a way to get these programs to work perfectly but what I have found is that at least in my case, I would have to manually tweak the image to get the results I am looking for. Which is why I am not sure I want to spend over $250 for the same results that I already have, not to mention all the time.

 

It is normal and as a matter of fact, you want the top of you projector images to be flat and a perfect straight line across the top. (The vertical edges also need to be perfectly vertical, no key stoning or you will have big problems.) Pretty much what you have. The images will bow down just like what you see in your setup. But what you want to do is either have your automatic warp tool pull up the bottom of the image or you will have to do it manually with your control points. You can get close with less control points but to get perfect, you will need MORE control points. And that's all manual work.

 

Along these same thoughts, within your warping software you might have what you think is a perfectly warped cylinder screen. Everything looks perfect. But when you open P3D, it still looks warped. And that is the frustrating part that will make you pull the rest of the hair off your head!!!!!!! I notice you have a swear jar to the left of your setup that looks full of rolled quarters... Anyway....LOL So what I did was thought outside of the box and warped the image in the warping software so that it looks messed up but when you open P3D it looks better. And because none of these fancy warping software programs can warp P3D or FSX in real time, you will have to mark areas on your screen with blue painters tape while in P3D and then close it and open your warping tool to make the adjustments. I have mine pretty darn close to where it needs to be and as I fly or taxi around, if I see an area that needs adjusting, I pause the sim, make the marks and keep on flying. Then when I shut the sim down, I open up the warping software and make the minor adjustments so it will be fixed for the next flight. Is it a lot of work? yes. Is it the preferred way to fix the warped image? no. But is it effective? yes.

 

I think with my personal setup that I have some fundamental issues that make it impossible to achieve the "automatic" results that the program you are using is suppose to achieve. My biggest problem is that I am on a tighter radius than the guys who are building a 737 sim as an example or even you with a 8.36' radius. I am using a 6' 6" RAD. I am limited to this radius due to the room I am in. If I had the option to go with a larger radius, that would solve 90% of my issues. My problem is that I can not use the automatic warping tool because my radius is too tight. Take a look at the photo that I have attached. See the little triangle of nothing at the bottom of the screen? It is in that empty space where I want to place my control points to enable the automatic warping tool to work but it won't let me drag the points there. At least you don't have this problem! You are on a large enough radius that you can place your control points where you need them. Funny thing is my Fly Elise NG program allows me to pull control points out of the field of projection. Maybe your software allows it also but not in auto mode.

 

Your projectors are spaced more apart than mine. I had to put mine so close that they touch each other.

 

Another point. I gave up on trying to blind my edges between left, center and center, right. I have spent months on it and really stepped it up these past few weeks and got nothing but frustrated. Again, I think for me it is a fundamental issue but this time with the projectors. I am using $650 projectors and they work great if you are using one on a flat surface. The problem I am seeing is that each projector is projecting a light shadow (not sure what else to call it) that is bigger than the projected image. So even when I overlap and perfectly blend the image at the seams, I still have a vertical light shadow about three inches on both sides of the vertical seams. The good news is it is not as noticeable flying at night. It's not even that big of a deal flying during day light, but still.......

 

I have found that the greater the rotational angle for your left and right projectors, the more pronounced the horizon will be out of wack especially when in a turn or bank. The other day I was using -67 for the left view and 67 for the right. I backed it off by one degree -66 and 66 and it made a positive difference. I started off at -90 and 90 which was horrible, as bad as what you currently have. I backed those numbers off to the point that -66, 66 gives me the perfect balance in non horizontal distortion and view angle. And to check the view angle turn the plane to a 90 degree angle on the runway and when you look left and right it should look like what you would expect . So 66 = a total of 198 degrees of view which is still great!!! Anything over 180 degrees is outstanding. As a matter of fact, not even the big class D sims have 180 degrees of view.

 

Mark, I think if I were you, (and I am in your shoes so I know) I would skip the overlap/blending and work on manually warping the image like I suggested above. Get something that looks good and to a point where you can fly it and be proud to show it off. Save that warping CFG and then play with it later to see if you can get the blending where you want it. And if it fails or falls short, you can always simply pop your saved CFG file back in, rotate your projectors back and your flying again. And in the process you will learn, learn and learn some more.  I hope this info is helpful.

 

(Posted by Mark Speechley on 01-10-16)

Time for small update.  I am flying using Prepar3d v2.5, with the three Benq 1080 projectors using Nvidia Surround, with 2 GTX 670 cards in SLI. Wow what a view and immersion.

 

But......For anyone heading down my route beware. This may be unique to my setup however there are a myriad of people on the net with Nvidia surround issues that have been literally been going on for years. In my case I have wasted 5 months trying to sort my problem out. Windows works fine and using Immersive Display Pro warps OK. It is very 'flaky' as in sometimes having to turn warp on/off multiple times or even quit the program and restart it just to get the warp to kick in. Once it works you need to get used to the idea that on your projector screens the mouse cursor may not line up with what you need to click on. You need to move the mouse around until you see the visual clue that what you want is highlighted.

 

That is not my problem.

When P3D fires up and you choose a flight the right projector will go black. You can move the mouse/window into that projector and you can see the outline but the screen will be black.

 

If you get out of Nvidia Surround it works ! However without Surround the warping should know as I have wasted months trying to manually setup the screen without warping. Don't bother.You can have the three screens look lined up but once you bank, forget it.

 

The temp fix though seems to be the Nvidia drivers. I have gone back to Nvidia 345 or thereabouts by uninstalling in safemode. Then installing a new driver once back in Win (7). You then have to re-setup Surround and guess what, the three screens work with great frame rates. Most settings at least 3/4 and getting up to 60fps. Beat that !

 

By now I'm doing an Irish jig (just for you Eric) fixed. But alas. As soon as you turn off the computer and come back it's back to black again.

 

So more testing today but seems like all I may have to do is instead of changing drivers, or re-installing same one, I may just have disable then re-enable Surround. Not ideal but at least it now works. I may even have a situation where there is some weird interaction between Immersive display Pro and Surround. I hope not as there is nothing I can do about that.

 

In summary.

Surround works great.

 

You can't do three projector screens adequately without warping software.

 

Nvidia drivers are buggy and you may have to source older ones not newer.

 

Ron does not have my problems as he uses Matrox triplehead2go. Until (in my case) I can fault find I would suggest that Matrox or Eyefinity may be the safer way to go.

 

I'll upload some videos when I can work out how to do it.  Will keep you posted.

 

First one is ORBX Jacksons International airport . Just showing that Surround works. The vertical bright spots are the bog from the joins for the MDF which have shrunk. I've been trying more undercoat to reduce the glare.

 




 

The second video is of the South Island of New Zealand flying from Queenstown toward the coast to Milford Sound.

 




 

UPDATE:  The latest Nvidia drivers work. You just have to disable then re-enable Nvidia surround for the third projector screen to not blank out. For this test I had Immersive display Pro not enabled for windows startup.

 

Still more testing but narrowing down the workaround fix.

Confirmed.

 

Fix for black screen when using Nvidia 2D Surround ( in my case) is to:

1/ Do not start warping software when windows loads.

2/ Disable 2D surround.

3/ Restart windows.

4/ Enable Surround.

5/ Start warping software.

 

A pain but at least it works now. It maybe an upgrade to 2 new GTX 980ti's will fix it or a motherboard issue or Nvidia driver .........who knows ! I have tried different drivers and using the latest so not fixed by Nvidia yet.

 

I have 3 projectors plus an accessory monitor. Some have suggested that it is trying to switch to the accessory as part of surround. I certainly have had it working if you went 3 projectors and disable the accessory, but that was a pain accessing the menus in my case.

 

If you can afford it, Matrox THTGo would've given me much less grief.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 01-21-16)

Hey Mark, I have a Th2Go and a Nvidia GTX580 3gb video card. At the time, four years ago, it was the best you could get within reason. Now we are all looking at the GTX980 6gb series cards. I plan to update mine in another year or so after I get all of the interior fiberglass work completed.

 

Funny thing is I have heard and read that there are new video cards coming out that do away with the need to have a TH2Go unit. And then I read this......"If you can afford it, Matrox THTGo would've given me much less grief."

 

I like simple and I like headache free. I can say this, I have never had any issues with the TH2Go or with the GTX580 video card. They both do what they are asked of. I plan on keeping my to work along side the GTX980 or whatever the card of choice is when that time comes.

 

(Posted by Mark Speechley on 01-22-16)

It's back to that quirky chestnut of everyone's setup is different. My situation is shared by a few but not by the majority (unless they're not saying ), hence workarounds have to be found. At great expense of upgrading the 2 video cards it may or may not have sorted out the surround problem. I suggest anyone just type Nvidia Surround black screen' into Google and you will get 193,000 results!

 

Anyway as you alluded to Ron of upgrading the video card there are plenty of advice mongers for you to peruse.

 

Here is an example. The CPU may be keeping your video cards on idle if you upgrade:

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6315&t=116744

 

The other bit of expensive advice I can give is that when you purchase your warping software, if you are given an option of buying the dongle instead of downloading the software TAKE THE DONGLE. I haven't come across the problem yet but if you upgrade the mobo/computer and the Hardware id changes ( required for registration of my warping software) then your warping software may not function. You are then in a world of non-flying. The dongle will just allow you to move the software to different computers.  Just a thought.

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 08-05-16)

Over the past few months, I have had a few of you ask me if I thought a projector visual system could be possible in a room with only a seven foot ceiling. My sim is in a room with an eight foot ceiling and until just yesterday, my train of thought was that you would not want to try to use a projection system in space less than eight feet of vertical. Well, after going back and forth with Jeff Peters in an email, the light bulb finally came on full bright in my mind! (Probably because I have nearly cleared my plate of the RMUs!)

 

In a nut shell, my plan is to raise my entire sim and it's base frame up about 12 inches. For you guys wondering if it is possible to have a projector system with your sim within a seven foot vertical space, I will be building a seven foot ceiling simulator! Your sim would be set up like mine is currently at the floor and in the next few days (hopefully), your sim would be set up like mine at the ceiling.

 

One thing that has always bothered me in my sim visual set up is that if I move my head close to the side windscreen, I can see the bottom edge of the visual system. Now if I raise the sim up into the "sweet spot" by 12 inches, it will be much more difficult to see the bottom edge of the visual system, making the visual system appear more immersive.

 

Because I am using a warping software, I can easily pull the visual image up another twelve inches around the nose. I have to do that currently so that will not be a big deal.

 

Another issue is that I will more than likely need to adjust the seat height position in the P3D software UP in order to compensate for moving the sim up 12 inches. As you can imagine, I would end up loosing 12 inches of visuals at the bottom of the screens. I should be able to easily adjust that.

 

I may have to use a horizontal horse blinder for the bottom side of the center projector to block out the black light that the projector puts out. Although I can pull the projected image up and over the nose, the projectors still put out black light that needs to be blocked.

 

A neat side effect to moving the sim up into the "sweet spot" is that the sim will now be about 20 inches off the floor which will make it more like we are climbing up into the sim instead of just stepping into the sim. I plan on taking advantage of this by making a large step at the rear of the sim and maybe with some edge lighting. It will also make accessing the under side of the base frame much easier. Too easy almost.

 

So now you know what I will be working on in the next few weeks. Keep an eye out in this thread for photos and updates!

 

I got started with a quickness on raising my sim up into the "sweet spot". In all, my sim will be raised about 9 inches higher while the projectors and screens remain in place.

 

This is the best photo I could take that shows from the pilot's point of view one of the issues I am trying to address:

Ron 443

If you look closely, you can see the bottom edge of the screen and even the house wall. That tends to take away from the sim experience.

 

This is part of the solution. I picked up four of these from Wal Mart for about $24 a piece. They are boat seat bases.  They come in a couple different sizes. I am using 11.5" tall bases:

Ron 444

 

And after adding "REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT" tags, they look like flight simulator part!

Ron 445

 

I used four quart size cans of semi gloss white interior paint to help hold up the sim. You can use any sheen finish, it does not matter:

Ron 446

 

It took a little work, leverage and engineering to figure out how to get the sim up safely. All in all, it went up without a hitch!

 

And here it is 9 inches higher. No more caster wheels!

Ron 447

 

Here is a peek of the base attached to the sim base. It is super strong with only three screws in each base but I will probably add some woodwork so that I can use that forth hole:

Ron 448

 

This was an issue I saw coming but no big deal. The warping software will allow me to pull the image up and over the nose of the shell just like before:

Ron 449

 

More updates of this neat upgrade coming soon!

So in all, it only took a week of planning, three days of building and about $220 to give my sim a 9 inch lift. That includes the step that I also had to create so that it is more natural getting into the sim. So here are the rest of the photos!

 

Here is the completed step. By the way, if need be, I can push the step under the sim to make room:

Ron 450

 

I built it with strength in mind. I don't know how much it can hold but I have a cousin that is close to 500 pounds and it could hold him! We will put it to the test one day.

 

I used the same carpet for the step that I used in the sim. I was not sure how I was going to cover it but it turned out better than I could have hoped for. The corners are perfect. One thing that I was looking to avoid is sharp corners in case the back of someone's leg catches it. That could leave an ugly injury. So in this case, the corners are nothing but carpet. You might get a carpet burn at worse:

Ron 451

 

Here is the under side of the construction. I had to build up the thickness of the step to make it two even steps up into the sim. A positive impact is that the step is super strong and it gave me thick edges to wrap the carpet down the sides. I also added some LED lights. First, they look cool! But the main idea of having the lights is safety. The lights silhouette the step making it very easy to see where the step is as you are getting out of the sim:

Ron 452

 

I have the same lighting system in my kitchen over our wine glasses. The kit only cost $39.  Here it is lit up. I will stay with a soft solid red:

Ron 453

Every color in the rainbow is available at the touch of a button on a remote control.

 

(Posted by Mark Speechley on 08-21-16)

Just on a side note regarding the three views, this thread is just in from the P3D forum.  For those of us, like Ron, might find the last post in this thread interesting.

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6312&t=120471

Just got to find money for a Titan!

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 10-18-16)

Hey guys, as you should know if you have been following along is that I used a large 24 foot long and 6 foot tall projector screen canvass to cover my screen system to have a nice seamless surface to project the image on from the three projectors. For the most part I am happy with it but with time, the glue on the back side of the screen material is giving way which is causing wrinkles in the screen. This leads to warping waves in the projection image which leads to unhappy camper syndrome.

 

In a perfect world the screen material would have gone up easy and stuck in place until the day I decided to take it down. For now, it is still up and flyable but not perfect which I know will never be fully achieved on our home budgets but we should always strive to achieve perfect none the less.

 

So when time permits, I plan on pulling the screen material back and using a different kind of glue in a small area to see if it works better than what I first tried. If that works, I will do the whole screen.

 

Plan B will be to pull the screen material down and paint the screen frame. Tom Goldberg pointed us to this a few years ago: http://www.projectorcentral.com/paint_perfect_screen_$100.htm

 

So if I go this route I would need to use drywall joint tape and drywall mud to address the five vertical seams. This is a messy approach but at least one that will address the wrinkles in the screen material because it would no longer be there! Re gluing the screen material is also problematic because the canvass is so big and in a tight space. If the screen material bends on itself during this process of gluing, that crease in the material is visible even in the dark with the projectors casting an image on it. This is something that I have been thinking about for about six months now.

 

So my question for you guys is: What color do you think will work best when it comes to the screen? I have some ideas but wanted to see what you guys thought.

 

(Posted by Mark Speechley on 10-19-16)

Wow, ' Back to the Future' again.  This hobby is so awesome, you either upgrade things or go back and re-learn old stuff all ready nutted out for you by the Hangars' knowledge base.

 

I didn't bother with a screen canvass. Like Ron, the joins, (which I used thin MDF sheets) were my biggest grief.

 

You can use the drywall premix easy enough but my initial mistake was not using a wide enough drywall scraper. I suggest you buy a couple of sizes as they are usually plastic and cheap. The issue is, if you use a short diameter scraper it looks right covering the join but IT SHRINKS.

 

Hence, after a few days, you may not have a continuance of the curve. Also the way your lights shine on the wall can vary. One direction can look good and another depending on lighting from a different direction can show a subtle depression and shadow. Bummer. I can tell you that I have done some of the joins 5x, but then I am no tradesman.

 

Next and this is important. The undercoat is very important or the drywall mix will show up more under lighting from the projectors.

 

Now here is the controversial bit and that is a personal taste thing.  The color boils down to whites or greys. Some diehards on the internet will show you black screens.

 

The fundamental differences are:

1/ How much ambient light in your room. If more light then you go for a darker shade.

2/ Black for night flying is better with the darker shade.

 

So I opted for mid range and went for a grey. I have not used a white so I cannot comment. My hangar is pretty dark so I could've and may still change to white.

 

This is the way I went.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Widow_(paint_mix)

 

The key to this is the addition of automotive aluminum ( aluminum) paint. What that does, is cause greater reflection of the light being shone back to your eyes, off the microscopic aluminum paint. The grey gives better blacks than the white screen, but I assume will be slightly duller than the white screen which 'may' be offset by the aluminum paint.

 

Anyhow that is my approach and works quite well. Just shows you that white isn't the only choice.

 

I think the future for us is the way Shane has gone with the 3x 70 inch TV screens. The resolution, vibrant colors and space saving alone are game changers. 3x 4K screens though will bring the new GTX 1080 card to it's knees in fps. So it is the old catch up hardware with the software still. Lower resolutions will of course work much better. My BenQ projectors cannot do better than 1080p so the TV's that are better than HD will of course look much better.

 

A couple of general points to consider:

1/ Heat generated from those TV's ?

2/ Warping software 'may' be required if FOV is to be greater than default Nvidia Surround ( ~ 135deg ) . P3D view groups may be needed for each separate TV. No big deal, same with projectors.

3/ Your electricity bill needs to considered when using projectors.Each BenQ at max is 353 watts per hr.

(3 projectors at 4 hour flight = 4236 watts)

4/ Sitting too close to the large TV's may be a problem considering pixel size, TV quality , motion blur etc.

 

Check out this site for comparisons re HD gaming.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-size/70-75-inch/best

 

Just throwing information out there for consideration. Really interested to see how Shane's setup works. Got my fingers crossed.

 

(Posted by Maciej on 10-23-16)

I'm still on the fence. There might be an opportunity in the future to take over one of the basement bedrooms for me and this would open up an option to install projectors instead of TVs. Will see how it progress.

 

I'm gonna address few concerns raised by Mark. I don't believe that with LED TV there is going to be an issue with heat. Plasma TV would be another story but with LED I'm confident saying it shouldn't be an issue. There is a video on YouTube (link ->[url=https://youtu.be/BBeYKoxpETg]HERE[/url]) with some input about LED TV heat.

 

Also, electricity. I pulled my last electric bill and found that 1 KWH cost me whooping 11.3 cents so 4236 Watts (equal to 4.236 KWH considering that projectors will use 4236 KW per Hour) would give a total of 48 cents. Going further, flying 4 hours every day will crank the bill up to just under 15 dollars, unless I made some critical calculation errors here.

 

I was exploring curved TVs few days ago. You can get 65" curved TV for under $1200. Problem is curvature radius that is set for just under 14 feet. I'm planning on making some cutouts with 14 feet radius and see how it would line up with 3 of them put side by side. Obviously due to shorter distance from pilot and FO seat to the screen, setup of 3 TVs won't give perfect radius but it might be good enough to explore this path.

 

(Posted by Mark Speechley on 10-25-16)

I've gotten the money on Shane's setup as the resolution will be the game changer.  I have just thrown those points out there for comment as you have so ably handled.

 

LED TV and heat...winner!

Electricity. We in Victoria have some of the most expensive electricity on the planet. My bill has been outer space for ages so I get gun shy when it comes to bills. My last 3 monthly bill was $1069. Anyone beat that ?

 

So it turns out that we pay approximately:

Peak Usage (3pm-9pm weekdays, AEST) cents per kWh 41.998c

 

Shoulder Usage (7am-3pm, 9pm-10pm, weekdays and 7am-10pm weekends, AEST) cents per kWh 26.532c

 

Off Peak - All Usage at other times. cents per kWh 18.623c

 

So it will certainly not break the bank still , if you use projectors....in Victoria.

 

Still want to know though if you have larger screens and sit closer do you see the pixels ?

 

Last suggestion you made was for the curved screens. I have seen forum threads in the past that have said that the picture was better when in the rectangular configuration than when artificially trying to make them in a curve. I imagine almost no-one has tried the curved screen config yet to tell us how well that works. You could do us all a favor and go first!

 

The price for TV's in Australia is ridiculous so it would not even be a serious option for us for quite awhile. check this out:

https://www.jbhifi.com.au/tv-home-entertainment/hd-televisions/?p=1&s=releaseDate&sd=2&fc=*_sATTRIB-2076_s%3A%3ALED%20LCD%20-%20Curved%3B&mf=*_sATTRIB-2076_s&fm=false

 

Interesting thread on the ORBX Forum.

Here is a response by John Venema , ORBX CEO regarding large TV's.

" I have a 65" 4K HDR Sony TV in the family room which I have connected to the MSI laptop a few times via HMDI 2.0 and it gives me 60Hz but no G-Sync. It looks very impressive and I agree that dimensionally it's about the width of a C172.

 

But I also use the 32" about 90% of the time for admin work such as MS-Office, web browsing, forums etc and I can honestly say anything larger than 32" is going to give you eye strain and neck strain because it's such a large area to view directly in front of you."

 

Still hanging out for Shane's setup to give us a first hand opinion.

 

(Posted by Maciej on 10-26-16)

Let's explore some options with curved TV a little more.

 

Option 1:  65" curved TV (dimensions 31" H x 56" W) Having 3 of them would give me a curved view size of 31" high by 168" wide but curvature radius is 13,7 feet which is unrealistic. If I would to "break" the radius and bring TV closer to sim to around 5 feet radius, it would result in around 160 degree view.  Cost as of today would be $3891.

 

Option 2:  49" curved TV (25" H x 43" W). 3 TVs would give a curved view of 25" high by 129" wide. So between option 1 and option 2, I loose 39" of horizontal view or 19.5" on each side (left and right). Angle of view - 123 degree. Bear with me for a minute longer.

 

If you stack them up and get 6 units (2 rows of 3), our vertical view doubles to 50". Extra bonus of this move is curvature radius that drops from 13.7 to 9.8 feet which means less radius distortion at the edges of TVs. At 5 feet radius, view would still have 123 degree (37 degree less than option 1)  Cost of 6 would be same as 3 TVs size of 65"

 

Option 3:  8 curved TV 49" each stacked up in 2 rows of 4 with radius of 5 feet - field of view to 164 degree so just a little bit more than option 1. Cost a tad over $5000.

 

With option 3, vertical size of the view would be 50" which is 19" more than option 1.

 

Hopefully this weekend I can come up with a mock-up of all 3 options to get a visual idea....

 

Is it possible to connect 8 TVs to 2 GTX 1070 or 1080?

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 10-26-16)

Mark, I do not notice any pixels with TV's and no neck strain. My 70 inch TV is mounted directly in front of the nose of the shell will update as I get the other two 70 inch TV's online.

 

I may be wrong but if you are using more than 3 TV's you are going to take a hit on the performance / fps if trying to use more than 3 on a single computer. You may be able to use multiple TV's if you use multiple computers which means running a copy of P3D on each computer from my understanding.

 

At the moment I am going the route of 3 70 inch TV's, I have them mounted but not online yet. Hope to get them online soon but I will upgrade to the latest version of P3D first as it reportedly has better capability handling multiple views. Not sure my method will work yet but I'm going to give it a try. I will need to do more research to see what is the best method to develop the forward, left and right view and link them together. That will be my project for the fall and winter!

 

(Posted by Mark Speechley on 10-26-16)

Got the place rocking with this topic ! It is relevant to everyone of us because no point going through years of building and not having any visuals worth the effort.

 

Here is what I know.

Ron is right. Immersive display can adapt to enormous combinations of TV's.

 

As for attaching 8 TV's to 2 GTX 1070 or 1080's.

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/technology/surround/system-requirements

 

This shows using Nvidia Surround that with 2 cards you can only attach 2-5 screens and one accessory.

 

However on the Nvidia Forum take in this answer re; How many outputs for 1080's ?

 

"Still 4 Monitors, if you get two though you can combine the display outputs and get 8 monitors.

 

Or if you aren't going for 4k or 1440p per monitor, you could get a display port hub and split out the display port to triple 1080p displays. That could get you 10 displays off a single card.

 

The GTX10xx cards, and the GTX9xx have 5 display outputs, but can only use 4 of those outputs at any given time.

 

The internal hardware limitation should be on how many of the display outputs you can use, because the display outputs require a clock generator on the card to sync up whatever you are connecting to on the other side. As far as I'm aware, the 1070,1080,980 etc only have 4 clock generators.

 

Next up is the limitation of the bandwidth of the ports, simply put; how many pixels a port can put out at what frequency.

 

So a 4k 60hz capable Display port, can in theory drive 4x 1080p 60hz displays if you have a multiplexer, and it should count as one Display port output."

 

So that means that you probably could have 8 screens off two cards. however as I have shown you not with Nvidia Surround. That was max 5.

 

The crux of the whole discussion is can your CPU and your GPU's provide enough computation power for the resolution and the number of screens you need to run ? YES if you end up turning off all the eye candy but then what is the point. I have shown that I can run 3 projectors at 1080p on one GTX1070 card at medium high settings with fps 40 to 60, utilizing Nvidia Surround. If you increase the number of screens or resolution (eg 4K) from what I have then your fps will go down. To offset that you will need to reduce the visual settings.

 

Shane maybe right regarding the multiple TV's on a single computer but you just introduce a 2nd card in SLI and you may be okay. It all depends on what settings you are happy with.

 

Remember Nvidia Surround will probably only give you a FOV of ~ 135 deg. Shane's suggestion of multiple computers is sort of right. The way I read it was you have 2 choices.

 

1/ One computer but you have each screen assigned by 'view groups'. That way you can have the 180 deg or whatever you want, however you will take a fps hit.

 

2/ Yes you can have one computer per screen but, I stand to be corrected, that is only offered in the Professional Plus License, only $2300, at the moment. ( small change for Pharmacists?)

 

UPDATE:

For those who have not read this P3D forum thread, this should answer many questions.

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6312&t=120471&hilit=multi+channel

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 10-27-16)

Hey Mark, great info for us all to take in. The more I read the more I get confused on which way I will go in the future.

 

Option A:  Projectors

Option B:  LED HD TV's

Option C:  The future!

 

What is the future? First off I don't know anything and have not seen anything. I am just going off of what I see in my mind's eye and that little eight ball thing that you shake that say, "My sources say YES".

 

I know that we can achieve 3840 X 800 via a TH2Go unit, I am doing it now. And I also know that Sony, LG and a few other LED HDTV companies are working on flexible screens and are close to making it to market. To me it is only a matter of time until someone develops a high definition flexible wrap around screen for entertainment purposes like first person gaming. Not so much for us flight sim guys, but the first person shoot and kill type of games, race car games, etc... We will be able to piggy back on that. I think the technology is there now but an affordable product is still another 3 to 5 years away.

 

There will be a day in the near future when we can walk into Best Buy and walk out with a 24 foot long flexible HDTV rolled up under our arms and heading back to the house for under $3,500. You heard it here at Hangar45 first!

 

Imagine high definition LED, complete surround visual and seamless visuals, all wrapped up in one easy to maneuver, easy to set up and easy to hook into our video card. One display, one video card. It is coming!

 

In the meantime, (back to 2016) I am going to squeeze as much use and technology out of my current projector and screen system. Still looking to upgrade my video card around Christmas time by the way!  Here is an over view of my sim:

Ron 454

 

If I needed to, I could still go up another inch or two. As it is, I think I have found the "Sweet Spot"

Ron 455

 

Additionally, I finally got around to adding the small fan on the ceiling to help keep the three projectors cool.

 

(Posted by Maciej on 10-29-16)

I agree with Mark and I agree with Shane. 3 LED TVs is the way to go for limited space. Info Mark found on Prepar3D forum (great find by the way Mark!) proves that with proper software addressing distortion you can achieve great results.

 

I was a little concerned about what is happening at the edge where monitors are joined. There seems to be a problem with contrast due to angle of view:

(This is a screen shot of a video)

 

And an idea with curved TVs was in place to correct it.  Check out this video here:




 

I can't really see anything wrong!  Picture is stunning so Shane's plan on going with 3 LED TVs is great.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 03-16-17)

Back a few months ago I updated my video card with a GTX1070. For the most part it was an upgrade, possibly better framerates and it makes flying into busier airports possible. See the GTX1070 thread HERE

 

However, one thing that I am struggling with AGAIN is lining up the screens with each other vertically. On the ground, everything lines up fine but when I get in the air, things start getting misaligned. I currently have things misaligned on the ground and when I get in the air, things are more lined up. I believe this has something to do with objects being further away in the distance. As an example, if I maneuver the aircraft so that the moon is on one of the vertical seams, it is severely misaligned! And that is because it is 250,000 miles away!

 

The visuals continue to be a thorn in my side and others. I have reread this thread and pulled a few points out of it by myself and Mark S. A few years ago I mention this same issue and ended up reverting back to a -67 and 67 degree view angle for the left and right projectors. I also reverted back to an older zoom ratio that I was using saved in a previous config file. That did the trick. But this time around, other than changing out the video card, I updated the video drivers to the "latest and greatest". How many times do we have to be reminded that just because it is the newest driver that it is not the best driver for our setups? Mark wrote several months ago,

 

"The temp fix though seems to be the Nvidia drivers. I have gone back to Nvidia 345 or thereabouts by uninstalling in safemode. Then installing a new driver once back in Win (7)." This seemed to resolve the issue for him which was his right projector blacking out.

 

My hopes are that one of these P3D releases, maybe in the v4.0 series coming later this year, this visual system issue gets resolved once and for all from within. Would it not be cool to have a warping software built into the sim program? It's on my wish list!

Maciej and I have been talking back and forth about what would be a good projector option today in 2018.  The last time I was comparing projectors was back in 2011 and the affordable technology was surrounding the 1280 X 800 resolution projectors.  Seven years later, the affordable technology has stepped up to 1920 X 1080 resolution which is  considered 2K High Definition technology.

The next standard step up from 2K is 4K resolution and that technology is available but expensive.  But with that said, 4K technology would more than likely prove to be counter productive being that our computers would be working in overdrive to try to keep up with all that pixel rendering.  Attempting to run three 4K projectors would turn any visual system into a slide show unless our setting are pulled all the way back but then what's the point of having 4K?

As it is, a 1280 X 800 resolution projector has exactly 1,024,000 pixels.  A 2K, 1920 X 1080 resolution projector has exactly 2,073,600 pixels.  Times that by three projectors and you are suddenly at  6,220,800 pixels that need constant rendering.  Times that by an average frame rate of 30 FPS and now you are at over 186 million pixel renderings per second!  This is an incredible amount of computing power spent on just the visual system!  So you can imagine how hard our main server computer would be asked to work if we had three 4K projectors.

I did some initial looking around on one of my favorite websites, NewEgg.com.  Benq is one of the best brands of projector in the short throw business but they are going to be very expensive, especially when we need three of them.  By the way, with our screen setup, it is an absolute necessity to have "short throw" projectors.

Optoma is another well known brand and they have a couple 1920 X 1080 resolution short throw projectors that will work with a screen system that is based on a 6' 5" radius.  With larger screen radius', the throw (distance from the projector lens to the screen) is not as critical as smaller and tighter radius screens.
~
This is the Optoma EH200ST and it is currently priced at $811.00:
~
Another really good option is the Optoma GT1080 and it is currently priced at $1,048.00:
~
Each of these projector's throws are identical.  They should also both have a optical zoom of about 1.2X but neither of them say they do.  Keystoning by the way can not be used in our application so don't worry about what a particular projector has to say about that.  All three projectors MUST be on the same plain so that the seams are perfectly vertical and can be meshed together.
~
My research has also shown the the contrast ratio has improved significantly.  My current projectors have a contrast ration of 2,000:1.  These new 2K projectors have a contrast ratio anywhere from 15,000:1 to as high as 25,000:1  And, most of these projectors have over one billion colors!
~
Another thing to look at when considering projectors is the bulb life.  Some are as little as 2,000 hours but these listed above have a max life of up to 6500 hours.  Bulbs are very expensive, especially X3!
~
With all that said, I am intrigued with this projectors:
Or:
They are the same except one comes with a ceiling mount which we would need and an extended warranty.
~
What I like about them:
1.  They are full HD 1920 X 1080 (like the others)
2.  They have a contrast ration of 150,000:1  That is crazy!
3.  The bulb life is over 30,000 hours!  That is crazy too!
4.  Mounting them to the ceiling will be a snap especially with that mounting kit.
~
What I am concerned about:
1.  Up to 1,000 Lumens.  What does this mean?  Are they going to be dim?  Will day time flying look dull?  Even the lights at night time flying may look weak.  We would need to look into this more.

2.  Projecting onto a curved screen so close.  The lenses in all these projectors are designed to project onto a flat surface.  The focal point of a projector when it is further away can be adjusted so that two areas of the image are sharp but the middle area is slightly out of focus and the extreme left and extreme right are slightly out of focus.  Not very noticeable in my set up with a standard short throw, but with this Ultra short throw, this may be an issue, but may be worth looking into.

One last tip for anyone looking for a projector for you specific screen setup.  Make sure to check your selected projector in the Projector Central calculator found here:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/projection-calculator.cfm

This free projector calculator utility has been around for years and has in it's database just about every brand and model number ever made.  Simply find your brand and model number and it will pull up a graphical calculator with sliders.  Move the sliders to determine if a particular projector will work for your specific needs.  You can not select a projector without this utility!