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Interior Panel Development by A.J. Simulations

(Original thread started on 08-26-12 by Shane Barnes)

I've been quietly working on a project in the background for several weeks that hopefully will benefit the Hangar community. A couple years ago I was able to purchase the real interior panels out of a salvaged Lear 45 and debated for quite a while on whether I could use them as a mold to make more interior parts.  The first course of business is that I did not want to destroy/damage my real panels in the process.

 

So a few weeks ago I started experimenting on ways to make a mold of the real panel. First attempt with expanding foam . . total disaster . . a waste of money.

 

Second attempt at the mold . . plaster cloth and patching plaster . . it worked!

 

Here is a photo of the real interior panel covered with plaster cloth and patching plaster waiting on a couple of layers of fiberglass to make the mold. I had to cover the real part with plaster cloth and plaster to protect the real panel while applying the fiberglass:

Shane 4

 

photo of the real part after sanding the plaster cloth and patching plaster smooth and priming with gray primer:

Shane 6

 

and after applying fiberglass to the plaster cloth mold I had a mold . . this is a photo of the fiberglass mold after cleaning away the plaster cloth and plaster:

Shane 7

 

I then applied primer and putty and sanded to a smooth finish.  This is a photo of the inside of the mold with 10 coats of mold release wax:

Shane 8

 

And a photo after the mold was sprayed with polyvinyl alcohol (PVA) used to cure the gelcoat and helps with the release of the part from the mold:

Shane 9

 

And here is a photo of the new interior panel,  the grey color panel on the left is the mold, the middle panel is the real panel and the panel on the right is the new interior panel fresh from the mold:

Shane 10

 

Making the molds is quite a time consuming process as well as molding the actual part. Molding the new part is a 4 step process .

1) waxing the mold 10 times

2) spraying the PVA over the mold release wax

3) spraying the gelcoat

4) applying the fiberglass to the mold

 

It is worth the effort as the final product is a very good representation of the real panel, is lightweight and flexible like the real panel and has a white gelcoat finish ready for scuff sanding and painting to the final interior color which would be left to the builder as some final fitting/sanding may be necessary to fit to the builders shell.

 

(Posted by Alan Norris on 08-27-12)

Great job Shane!  You are really coming through for the Lear45 community. I have been talking to a local salvage company (who I got my seat from) and they told me that Lear45 parts are very difficult to come by. You were very lucky to have found your interior and that is a big plus for us. Super nice panel and we know that it'll fit Ron's shell.

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 08-27-12)

After convincing myself that this can be done, I will be starting on the molding process for the other interior panels. If all goes well, the overhead panels, center panels (where CB panels mount) and the windscreen panel (where overhead compass mounts) will be available for purchase.

 

I will be working on getting the measurements for the lower panels that contain the bookshelf and forwarding these to Ron/Eric so that they can get a CAD drawing of the lower panel for builders.

 

If you are considering ordering the replica interior panels, I would advise to wait on building the lower panel with bookshelf until you have the center panel (where the CB panels mount) in hand. This will guarantee that you have the correct contour where the lower and middle panel meet.

 

I had some time this evening to cut off the excess fiberglass fuzzies around the edges and to ensure that the real air vent would fit. After a little trimming of the opening, the air vent fit like a glove.  I then checked to ensure that the replica would fit the lower panel with the bookshelf.  Once again it fits.  Here are a few photos of the panel with the air vent attached and a photo showing the replica panel fitted to the lower panel.

 

Replica panel on the left and the real co-pilot panel on the right:

Shane 11

 

Close up of the real air vent attached to replica panel:

Shane 12

 

Notice in this photo that I have left some extra material at the bottom of the panel which creates a larger lip than the real panel. I did this to allow some flexibility for the builder, if needed it can be cut down to allow fitting. Leaving this lip does not allow me to seat the panel in the groove located in the real lower panel.  I wanted to show this photo to illustrate the fit of the lower panel contours:

Shane 13

 

And a photo showing some of the small details such as the air vent bulge located near the pilot's elbow:

Shane 14

 

I want to keep the price reasonable for members so the plan is to make molds of the following interior parts:

 

Center interior panels (where CB panels mount), Overhead interior panels, Windscreen panel (where overhead compass mounts) and the Glareshield and Glareshield extensions.

 

All of these panels will be offered to members as the molds are completed. The interior panels ( center panel, overhead panel and windscreen panel) will be made of fiberglass with a white gel-coat finish on the visible side ready for scuff sanding and painting to final interior color (scuff sanding and final painting will be left to the builder as some final cutting and fitting may be needed to fit a particular build)

 

The glareshield and extensions will be made of fiberglass. This will provide the builder with a good base to start with. The builder will need to add attachment brackets, padding and vinyl to finish it out.

 

I will update this thread as I progress with each mold. Each mold is somewhat time consuming but I think this will offer a solution so nice interior panels are available to our builders. I should be starting on the next mold within a week.

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 09-01-12)

Okay, I had a little time to confirm what I already knew but I wanted to share this information with everyone here in the Hangar. Over the years, we look at these photos so often that we develop a sense of perception that becomes our reality.

 

As an example, until recently, I thought that the panels that Shane is currently working on were covered with a p-leather like material. Eric pointed out to me that they are actually a hard material, not covered in a soft material. Then we got to talking about the colors of the different panels in the flight deck. He thought that they were all a creamy white where as I thought that they were a light gray color with the exception of the center post. Turns out we are both right. Take a look at some of these photos:

 

This is a perfect picture of all the panels in a cream white color:

Ron 200

 

In this photo, the overhead panels appear to be a little lighter than the center post. But the trim is a creamy tan color:

Ron 201

 

This one appears to be very close to the same color:

Ron 202

 

On the other hand, here are a few photos of the overhead panels done in a light gray. Notice that the cabin area is a light cream, the cockpit is a light gray and the center post is a light cream:

Ron 203

 

You can clearly see the difference here. I like the tan trim:

Ron 204

 

And another good example of three different colors going on is a small area. Makes you wonder:

Ron 205

 

I believe this is the colors that Shane's panels are finished in:

Ron 206

 

And last but not least. Gotta love the tan trim!

Ron 207

 

So as we can see from this series of photographs, there are at least two different colors that can be found in the flight deck of the L45. This is a good thing because we can now freely go with one color scheme or the other and do so knowing that either is correct!

 

(And no, it is not a lighting issue playing tricks on the camera. Shane has confirmed that the panels that he has are in fact a light gray color.)

 

(Posted by Randy Buchanan on 09-03-12)

Shane, you just became our new fiberglass hero. So what is the glare shield? I agree with Ron, I thought it was two pieces a little less than 1/2" both covered with say black leather. That is the way the pictures look. It may be too late for some of us. But thanks so much Shane. And thanks Ron for the pictures.

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 09-06-12)

The glareshield is actually comprised of three separate pieces, the main glare shield (the large piece running all the way across the MIP and the two sliding sections that slide aft (toward the aircrew) to allow for more sun blockage. If all goes well with the molding process, all three pieces will be duplicated in fiberglass and the builder can cover with foam and vinyl.

 

Last night and today I began molding the second panel ( co-pilot middle panel) I am laying up layers of fiberglass today . . taking a break as I write this. I think the next panel to mold will be the glareshield, that is probably the panel most are ready for.

 

As for the real panels, mine are a very light grey to off white color. Kinda hard to tell exactly as they are real with the real wear and dirt and fading that goes along with used parts. The interior panels (middle panels , overhead panels and center windscreen panel are a plastic, similar to the plastic interior parts you will find in your vehicle. The lower black panels with the recesses for manuals etc are covered with a black vinyl along with the glareshield. Hopefully that clears up any confusion as to what panels are plastic vs. vinyl covered.

 

After completing the pilot side middle interior panel and proving that the process would work, I have moved on to the next molds, co-pilot side middle interior panel and the glareshield.

 

Tonight I had time to trim the fuzzies off the fiberglass mold for the co-pilot middle side panel. I will be puttying and priming the mold soon to get it ready to start making parts.

 

This is a photo of the fiberglass mold so far:

Shane 15

 

And I had time this evening to get one section of the glareshield prepped with plaster cloth and patching plaster . . it is now ready for several layers of fiberglass which will become one of the three molds needed to replicate the glareshield.

 

Here is a photo of the progress on the glareshield mold making process:

Shane 16

 

(Posted by Alan Norris on 09-07-12)

When I made my glare shield cover I added the edging to the front and I must say it looks very similar to the one you have. On the real part is the front edge molded into the cover or is it added on like I did?

 

Also, I'm curious as to what that bulge is on the side panel near the pilots elbow, inquiring minds want to know.

 

Keep up the good work -- I'm looking forward to seeing the adjustable covers so that I can decide if I need to add them. On the real cover, are those two buttons just attached to the main cover to guide the adjustable one?

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 09-07-12)

The trim on the front edge of the glareshield is added on just like you have done.  It is not molded in. I have searched the Internet for a similar product to no avail. The nearest match was a trim edge for RV6 /7 aircraft . . price for the trim was anywhere from 170 to over 200 dollars and it was not an exact match and in my opinion would not look as good as what you have used. The trim that you used in my opinion was a better match and would recommend to builders to use on the fiberglass glare.

 

The trim edge on the real glare reminds me of door weatherstripping like you might find on a car. It is semi soft so you can push in on it with your finger and it is covered with vinyl. I think this would be difficult trying to glue the vinyl onto a piece of weatherstripping and then applying the weatherstripping onto the edge of the glare. So I think the best method at this point is the edge that you are using. It looks really good.

 

As for the bulge on the side panel near the pilots elbow, that is for a vent. However, on my real panel with the bulge a piece of factory applied foam is glued over the vent slits so it was not in use. I will leave it up to the builder when they purchase the panel whether or not they want me to cut the slits out for the vent or leave it solid.

 

As for the adjustable covers on the glare,  there are two long threaded screws that screw into the main glare.  Then the small covers slide back and forth guided by these two long screws. I think I have found the hardware to duplicate this and as I collect it will pass along to you. I believe that it will be easy to add this to your glare.

 

Quick update: I worked on the first of three molds for the glareshield. Here is a photo of the main glareshield mold. Due to its size, I found it necessary to build a form to hold it's shape while doing the finish work to the surface of the mold:

Shane 17

(Posted by Alan Norris on 09-09-12)

Thanks for that explanation Shane. Here is the link to the manufacturer of the edge trim I used. They will send you samples if you ask (I got a 6" piece of mine before ordering it from Graingers). As I mentioned before, be sure to measure the thickness of the finished cover (including two thicknesses of leather cloth -- but not foam as that is not applied to the very edge) before ordering so you get the right one. [url]http://www.trimlok.com/cat/Edge-Trim/Browse-All-Products_102.aspx[/url] I used the "Build Your Edge Trim" as it comes in a variety of sizes from 1/8" to 3/4" in 1/32" increments.

 

Here's what I used -- your mileage will vary!  As I said earlier I should have ordered 5/32 to account for the leather cloth. The part number you get after making selections relate to what Grainger uses for their 25" rolls:

Alan 3

 

I used 1/2" foam. There is only one issue that I can see and that is to make sure when you cut the foam the edge has to be straight and square. I find it best to use a steel straight edge and a sharp knife for the straight cuts (if you've done home improvement it's sort of like cutting fiberglass batting -- squash it flat with a 2x4 and cut with a knife). You have to be careful with the curves as any waviness will show through the leather cloth. I held the foam back about 1-1/2 times the width of the edging to get a "real Lear" look but you may be able to advise what the actual distance is.

 

Also, I would recommend using Loctite adhesive as I (and Ron) have had issue with the 3M adhesive staying tacky and not gluing properly. Not sure if it was a shelf life issue but after re-gluing my other panels several times I dumped the half full can. You can get Loctite from Jo-ann Fabric store and it comes in several strengths -- I used the strongest. You have to install the foam and then coverings using the stick method. If you've ever attached Formica you know what I mean. For those who have not, you have to spray on the adhesive and then lay small wooden laths or dowels across the part to prevent the foam from coming into contact with the panel (otherwise it's stuck ). Position the foam (or covering) on top of the panel until it's lined up and then slowly withdraw the sticks one by one working your way across the panel making sure you don't have wrinkles.

 

By the way, I was told by Eric that the padding on the top was fairly firm. The foam is a little too squishy for my liking but I couldn't find anything suitable. Foam is an open cell material and I think closed cell is the way to go. I would suggest looking around to see if there is anything out there that is similar to the real thing and you are the only one with that.

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 09-09-12)

The idea is to sell the builder the fiberglass shape of the glareshield. The fiberglass piece that I will be providing is already shaped/molded all the builder will need to do is add attachment brackets and the foam and vinyl. This will allow the builder to do the finish work himself but does not have to worry about getting the shapes/curves right as it will already be molded in the correct shape.

 

The jig is reusable.  It had to be made so I get the right shape every time I mold the glareshield.  This way the fiberglass will set up in the right shape and curves and will fit the metal glareshield panel contours.  So I can make multiple parts from this mold/jig to provide these parts to any member who needs/wants to purchase them.

 

Hey Alan, thanks for adding that information. As for the offset of the foam from the edge, well you were right on the money, it is 1.5 inches from the edge.  I discovered something when I went to measure that distance. The foam on top is not as thick as I thought.  I can feel a hard surface underneath and can tell the foam is no more than 1/4 inch thick if that much. This explains why the glareshield is rigid as the composite material starts to get thicker 1.5 inches back from the edge and I am sure this is where it gets its rigidity, a good find since I was concerned about to much flex in the replica glareshield, should be able to address that issue now and fix it.

 

(Posted by Alan Norris on 09-10-12)

My original intent was to use 1/4" thick padding. I have some of those anti-fatigue mats in my shop and they seem to be the ideal thickness and resistance. However the ones I have, have a diamond plate finish so I ordered a smooth one. Problem is that when it arrived it was not the same resistance and when you pushed your finger in it left an indentation so I ditched that idea. Jo-anns did not have 1/4" foam which is why I went with 1/2" -- and I'm not as fussy as some with those sort of details. If I find suitable 1/4" material I will let you know.

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 09-23-12)

I spent some time this afternoon sourcing some parts that will be needed to implement the slide outs on top of the glareshield. I was fortunate and found the exact parts and a supplier for the parts used on the glareshield and they don't cost an arm and leg! This will allow me to include the hardware needed to the glareshield kit so the builder will not need to source these parts. I will post photos of these parts once I get them in hand . . just ordered them a few minutes ago.

 

A quick update on the mold progress, working on the glareshield and had to order a different type of fiberglass that will add rigidity to the extensions/pullouts from our friends at Jamestown Dist. Should be here next week. This should give the performance I expect, won't release a part to others until it satisfies me! Also want these parts to compliment the awesome Project45 shell!

 

An update on the interior progress . . .

This past week I was kinda out of the loop due to training for my real job all week so I lost a weeks worth of work. Not all was lost, I had to wait for the fiberglass that I ordered to arrive anyway.

 

Here is what I have been working on:

Shane 18

 

Over the last couple of days I was able to do some more work on the glareshield and the co-pilot middle interior panel. So here is where I am at currently.

 

Main glareshield mold is completed and ready to make parts.  Keep in mind for all the glareshield parts there will be four molds:

Shane 19

 

The mold for the extensions / slideouts is almost finished, just needs a little more sanding:

Shane 20

 

And the co-pilot center interior panel needs putty sanded and another coat of primer and sanding:

Shane 21

 

I also received the small parts that will be needed to attach the extensions/slide outs to the main glareshield. The correct black screw covers as found in the real aircraft and the center H channel found on top of the glareshield that guides the extensions:

Shane 22

 

I will be working on the fourth and final mold for the glareshield this week so if all goes well I should have a complete replica glareshield minus the vinyl to show in the near future.

 

I started on the fourth and final mold needed for the replica glareshield assembly. This mold will allow me to make the piece that fills in the area between the main glareshield and the panel that Ron designed to fill in the area above the avionics bay.  You can find a link to Ron's tutorial HERE in post #2.

 

Here is a photo of the forward glareshield filler panel.  This is the early stages of covering with plaster and prepping it to be covered with fiberglass to make a mold.  The white section (covered with plaster) is the forward glareshield filler panel:

Shane 23

 

This piece will bolt onto the rear of the main glareshield completing the glareshield assembly.  This will offer the builder a complete glareshield package (minus the vinyl). Add the panel that Ron designed and the area from the glareshield forward is covered.

 

Here is a photo showing my glareshield with forward glareshield filler panel and Ron's panel above the avionics bay.  This covers the area directly behind the center windscreen post:

Shane 24

 

At this point I have all the molds made for the glareshield and should be pulling some replica parts from them soon.  I still need to get molds made for the two overhead panels, center windscreen post panel and the pilot side middle panel. As you may recall, the pilot side middle panel was the first panel that I created a mold from.  Since then I have learned quite a bit more and as such I am re-molding the pilot side middle panel which will result in a much better replica panel for the builder.

 

I also have sent the lower bookshelf panel measurements to Ron and Alan to be converted into a CAD drawing.  Looking forward to seeing what these two come up with concerning the lower panel. Hopefully we will hear from Alan again, he has been deciphering my measurements so he might lose touch with reality at any time!

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 10-12-12)

About a month and a half has passed since I began working on the molds for the glareshield and after some trial and error I have finished the molds for the glareshield assembly. The glareshield assembly consists of four main fiberglass pieces along with assorted hardware that allows attachment of the slide out extensions and the forward glareshield panel.

 

Here are a few photos of the replica glareshield with extensions installed. The forward glareshield panel is not installed in these photos. The photos should give you an idea of how well the replica glareshield fits the shell and MIP:

Shane 25

 

Shane 26

 

Shane 27

 

Shane 28

 

Shane 29

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 10-11-12)

I am currently working on two replica glareshields, one will be going to Randy B. once he has seen photos of the actual assembly he will receive and gives final approval for shipment and the other will be on its way soon to Ron's build.  Looking forward to seeing these replicas come to life as the builders apply the finishing touches of vinyl and edge trim to the replicas.

 

Here are a few photos with the forward glareshield panel added.  This covers the area between the main glareshield and the center windscreen post. This panel will be covered with black vinyl as well:

Shane 30

 

Glare Shield Extensions moved in toward pilot:

Shane 31

 

Glare Shield Extensions in stowed position:

Shane 32

 

I painted the area on the top part of the lower windscreen as it was green before. Looking at some photos of the real Lear I noted that this area appears to be black so I painted it black. A small area of this will show after you install the side panels and the glareshield just like in the real aircraft.

 

(Posted by Alan Norris on 10-13-12)

How thick did the main glare shield end up? I can send you the edging if it will fit (it's sized for 3/32" thick panels but will go up to 1/8").

 

Don't forget that you need to include the thickness of two layers of leather cloth in addition to the fiberglass. I forgot that when I ordered 3/32" which was just the thickness of the aluminum. Also 0.180 is close to 3/16" (0.1875) not 1/8" which is 0.125. I think you will need 1/4" edging to include the covering.

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 10-13-12)

The edge thickness ended up being between .170 to .180 thick so a little over the 1/8 inch. Looks like we will need to find an edging that accepts a thicker panel.

 

I think I found the same edging that you used but will accept the thicker panel at McMaster Carr. The part number is 8451A62.  The price is $1.08 ft.

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 10-29-12)

After completing one complete glareshield assembly and getting it delivered to Ron in Gatlinburg TN, I had some down time to work on another mold for the interior panels as I wait on more fiberglass and supplies to come in so I can finish out the next glareshield for Randy.

 

I had quite a bit of scrap fiberglass left over that was not suitable for making a replica part due to small pieces but was suitable for making another mold so I molded the overhead pilot side panel. This panel has quite a few curves, humps, and cutouts for overhead lights and vents and took a little time to mold but am happy to say the mold came out very good.

 

I am currently working several coats of putty and primer to ensure a smooth surface and here is the progress so far:

Shane 33

 

Not very pretty right now with the grey primer and red putty but after a little more work I should end up with another mold that will produce the overhead pilot replica panel.

 

Tomorrow I should receive a shipment of fiberglass and supplies and I will be back to work Friday finishing out a glareshield assembly for Randy.  Looking forward to laying up fiberglass this weekend!

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 10-29-12)

Sweet, looking good Shane! By the way, I put the glare shield in my sim tonight and it looks and fits great. I was surprised as good as it fit and I don't think I could have done better starting from scratch.

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 11-15-12)

Been a little quiet here. I've not updated due to laying up a replica glareshield.   I've been molding a glareshield assembly for Randy and finished it up several days ago. Got it shipped out to Randy today so he should have a glareshield replica in hand next week. After the Thanksgiving Holiday I will be getting back to work on completing the rest of the interior molds. Hope to have them finished by the first of the year so I can start producing replica interior parts.

 

Currently I have several builders interested in the replica glareshield and interior panels so hang in there with me as I complete the molds. I have you on my list for the replica parts.

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 06-21-14)

Almost a year and ten months since I started this mold making project for the interior panels. It took me a little longer than expected to make all the molds but this weekend I was able to get the molds completed and am now waiting on supplies to arrive from Jamestown Distributors. Here are a few photos of the completed molds that I took this evening. If all goes according to plan I will mold the first set of interior panels and I will keep them to trim future panels to the correct size . . the second set of panels molded will be going to Ron Rollo in a few months for further research and development:

Shane 34

 

Shane 35

 

Shane 36

 

Shane 37

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 06-26-14)

I have asked Shane to keep my interior panels raw and not finished. In other words, he will pop them out of the molds and I will take them just like that. The reason being is that I will more than likely be adding material and taking material off here and there for a perfect fit. Even if it is just a quarter inch, I want them to fit perfectly, or as close as possible.

 

I will be doing tutorials for each section as I go so that everyone will have a good idea on what it will take to finish them. You can find my tutorial thread HERE

 

(Posted by Shane Barnes on 07-07-14)

I had a few days off last week making it a long weekend and was able to lay up one set of interior panels. Took some effort to get them to break free of the molds but after 4 days work I was able to successfully make a set of interior panels for the Lear. Here are a few photos of the parts after removal from the molds. The gray and red marks you see on the parts is where primer and putty pulled loose from my molds. This peels off the part with your fingernail or razor blade with relative ease but creates more work for me to fix the areas that pulled loose in the molds. This set will be going to Ron in mid October for further development. I am looking forward to seeing the final touches Ron will make before installing in his sim:

Shane 38

 

Shane 39

 

Shane 40

 

(Posted by Ron Rollo on 07-07-14)

Hey Shane, the parts look great and I am really looking forward to meeting up with you in Gatlinburg in October. I need to start gearing up for these fiberglass parts.

 

By the way, Shane found this cool video of a Lear45. What we found really cool about it is the angles the cameras are at that catches the way the overhead panels meet (or actually do not meet) the windscreen. See it HERE

 

These are some screen shots for reference later on when we are working on this area:

Ron 208

 

Ron 209

 

I was worried about this based on seeing how Shane's overhead panels were fitting in his shell. But now it all makes perfect sense!